HTA 144(15): Amber Light - Fail To Stop



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Radar Identified
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by: Radar Identified on
Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:19 pm

Amber Light - Fail to Stop is not too hard to beat in Toronto. Basically the Crown has to prove that you either did not stop for an amber light when you could have done so safely, or that upon being unable to stop, you did not proceed with caution. "Speeding up" would be failing to proceed with caution. Perhaps maintaining your speed would be failing to proceed with caution, but that's very subjective.

You could try the First Attendance meeting and try to get a municipal by-law infraction. Tell them, with sincerity, that you want to save everyone's time and efforts and do not want a lengthy trial process, so you'd like to discuss some options. See what they say.

Of course, go for the disclosure package, etc. If the officer does not show up for the trial, case dismissed. If he does, there's a lot of evidence you have that indicate why you could not stop for an amber.

The key things to focus on are establishing that you could not have stopped, and then you proceeded with caution. A lot of your questions to the officer should focus on how he came to determine that you were unable to stop, and how he determined that you "sped up." Lots of questions to ask there. Anyway, the focus of your defence should be something like what you wrote: "I was approaching a green light and scanned the intersection for any hazards and other vehicles and pedestrians. When I was about two car-lengths from the stop line, the light changed to amber. I was driving at approximately the posted speed limit, which was appropriate given the conditions. I am fully aware of the capabilities and limits of my vehicle and know that I could not have safely brought it to a stop given the situation at the time. With that, I again confirmed that there were no hazards to react to, and also noticed the Toronto Police Service cruiser at the intersection. There were no vehicles that were going to proceed into my path and I coasted through the intersection, in safety and, in my mind, with a reasonable amount of caution."

That's my two cents...


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by: El Latin on
Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:21 am

Thank you Radar. What you said makes perfect sense. I know he will have a tough time since he has to prove how I was able to stop in time given the conditions. Not to mention there is construction going on and there is a lot of dirt on the lane I was in so I knew as well I would skid. I took pictures this morning of the site.

This happened at 12:44am while I was driving my friends home and there were no other cars around at the time. I would have been in the middle of the intersection had I stopped anyways. He would have probably given me a ticket for that too.

I want to do first attendance because I really do not want to go to trial and waste time from work. I would rather listen to the offer they make and if I agree, case closed as they say.


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by: hwybear on
Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:47 pm

Radar Identified wrote: Anyway, the focus of your defence should be something like what you wrote: "I was approaching a green light and scanned the intersection for any hazards and other vehicles and pedestrians. When I was about two car-lengths from the stop line, the light changed to amber. I was driving at approximately the posted speed limit, which was appropriate given the conditions. I am fully aware of the capabilities and limits of my vehicle and know that I could not have safely brought it to a stop given the situation at the time. With that, I again confirmed that there were no hazards to react to, and also noticed the Toronto Police Service cruiser at the intersection. There were no vehicles that were going to proceed into my path and I coasted through the intersection, in safety and, in my mind, with a reasonable amount of caution."

That's my two cents...
Have to give credit where credit is do.....

RI...that was as smooth as a bird in flight!!!
Last edited by hwybear on Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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by: Radar Identified on
Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:34 pm

El Latin wrote:I want to do first attendance because I really do not want to go to trial and waste time from work. I would rather listen to the offer they make and if I agree, case closed as they say.
They should be willing to listen. The better you are at convincing them that you're trying to save their time (even though you really aren't), the more likely they are to offer you something. Good luck with it.
hwybear wrote:RI...that was as smooth as a bird in flight!!!
Nice choice of words, Bear. :wink:


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by: El Latin on
Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:34 pm

UPDATE: I went to court today and wanted to have a first attendance but the guy in the information desk said prosecutors do not see my offenses and showed me a list. He said I have to set a trial date. So I set a trial date.

I then ask the lady when handing my form in how I can have disclosure, she didn't know what this was and asked me to simplify so I said the officers evidence. She then says you will be able to see the evidence at the trial. I didn't bother making a big deal out of it but my god.

Since the CUPE strike is going on they replaced the real workers with other non-union staff and they don't know jack all.

So my question is when my trial date confirmation comes in the mail will it mention it in their or do I have to wait until the strike is over to call one of the offices.


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by: El Latin on
Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:05 pm

Well its been a while since I have been here but I'm back. This time I have my court date. Before I continue I hope this helps many people out so I am sort of documenting this.

So I received my court date about 2 days ago and I find it odd that my date is coming up very quick. My court date is in February and I just received the notice of trial but it only gives my 1 month and change to get disclosure. I didnt know where to send my request until now. I will be faxing it on Monday but who knows when I will get anything back. The notice was filed in mid December.

Edit: My notice of trial also has the incorrect time of my offense. Instead of am it says pm.


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by: Radar Identified on
Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:22 pm

What I'd do is file the disclosure request and see what happens. Just a word of caution with the form (although I'm sure you already know this): Many people download the "sample form" from ticketcombat's website, cut-and-paste it, and submit it. Most of the requests and information for disclosure on that form do not apply to the vast majority of cases (e.g. any statements made by the defendant, will-say statements by witnesses, etc.) While the format is good, the requests are samples only. There are only two things you really should ask for in your case for disclosure: Full copy of the officer's notes, in typed format if the notes are not clearly readable; and, photographic or video evidence - if any exists and the Crown intends to use it at trial. (There probably is no video/photo evidence so likely none will be provided to you, but it's worthwhile asking for just in case.)

If nothing else, on the day of trial you can mention that disclosure has not been received yet and ask for an adjournment. Mention that the circumstances of the CUPE strike made it difficult to set a trial date, which pushed back the time for you to receive disclosure...

Other than that... see how it goes... They should adjourn the matter, or, if you're lucky, drop the charge.
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by: El Latin on
Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:59 pm

I have been pulling my hair searching for the fax number for Old City hall court house to try and have proof that I sent it in but I cant seem to find it on their site or anywhere.

If anyone knows where to point me please do otherwise I will go into court and fill out the form.

EDIT: TicketCombat has Old city hall byt my offense notice says 60 Old City Hall and Ticket has posted Old City Hall 100 Queen Street West. Are they the same?


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by: viper1 on
Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:58 pm

El Latin wrote:I have been pulling my hair searching for the fax number for Old City hall court house to try and have proof that I sent it in but I cant seem to find it on their site or anywhere.

If anyone knows where to point me please do otherwise I will go into court and fill out the form.

EDIT: TicketCombat has Old city hall byt my offense notice says 60 Old City Hall and Ticket has posted Old City Hall 100 Queen Street West. Are they the same?
20 Queen is part of Eaton center 60 is old city hall 130 is Osgood hall and 100 is new city hall.

Cheers
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use at your own risk"


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by: El Latin on
Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:49 pm

viper1 wrote:
El Latin wrote:I have been pulling my hair searching for the fax number for Old City hall court house to try and have proof that I sent it in but I cant seem to find it on their site or anywhere.

If anyone knows where to point me please do otherwise I will go into court and fill out the form.

EDIT: TicketCombat has Old city hall byt my offense notice says 60 Old City Hall and Ticket has posted Old City Hall 100 Queen Street West. Are they the same?
20 Queen is part of Eaton center 60 is old city hall 130 is Osgood hall and 100 is new city hall.

Cheers
Viper1
Thanks Viper that helped. I think Ticket has the wrong address but the correct fax thats all and it confused me.


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by: El Latin on
Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:41 am

Good news. Cop didn't show up and my ticket was dismissed.

I was prepared to fight it however.

The only odd thing was they had my disclosure at the courthouse only because I didn't place my phone number on the request even though my address is on there. We originally agreed before the trial with the prosecutor to have an adjournment so I could read over the disclosure but when my name was called up the prosecutor just asked if the cop was there which he wasn't.

I would like to thank everyone on these forums for helping me out. I recommend this to my friends when they need help as it has helped me.


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by: Radar Identified on
Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:59 pm

Congratulations! :D
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by: racer on
Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:55 pm

Congrats on an easy ticket win!

Shows that fighting your tickets are always a worthy cause. Good job on being prepared even when the cop did not show up.

You can always use www.OHTA.ca as a convenient shorthand recommending us to your friend too!
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