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49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offense
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:31 pm 
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I was pulled over today on highway 401, for going 129km/h. I was passing a car and pulled back into the far left lane, but did not slow down fast enough. Just my luck, I was in a posted 80 km/h construction zone and the officer told me that I was going 129 km/h, making me 49km/h over the speed limit. I have never been pulled over, so when the officer was talking to me I majorly panicked. He asked for my paperwork and I had my license on me, but I had just switched over to a new wallet and forgot to put my ownership and insurance in it. So when he asked for my ownership, I told him that I had forgotten it in my wallet at home (which was true). He then came back from his cruiser and handed me 2 tickets. One for speeding 49km/h over the limit ($329) and the other for failure to surrender my permit ($110). He did not show me his notes or radar, nor did he mention anything about demerit points.
I am an emotional wreck, so this is definitely eating me up inside because I don't have the money to pay the tickets and I really do not want my insurance to go up.
If I take this to trial and present my proper documents (license, ownership, and insurance), what is the likely hood of the charge for the permit being dropped or reduced? Also, what are my chances with the speeding ticket?
Thank you.


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:40 pm 
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If I were in your shoes I would file both tickets for trial with the officer present, once you get your trial date in the mail you can file a disclosure request with the court to get a copy of the officer's notes. Once you have that you can post them here and the good people on this board can take a look and see if there is any obvious way to beat either of the tickets. If the notes look solid and there is no obvious way to beat either ticket, you can still meet with the prosecution before court on the day of your trial and work out a plea bargain for a reduction. There is a good chance the prosecution will agree to drop the failure to surrender permit charge in exchange for you agreeing to plead guilty to the speeding charge. Speeding 49/km/h is generally looked at as a minor infraction by the insurance companies so you would be looking at either no insurance increase or a small increase depending on what insurance company you are with and what type of plan you have. Speeding 49 over caries 4 demerit points. If you have your full G licence and a clean record this isn't a big deal, however if you only have a G2 then an offence that has 4 demerit points will lead to a 30 day licence suspension. So if you only have your G2 keep that in mind before agreeing to any plea bargains.


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Did you admit to it? Did you make sure there were signs posted advising you of the construction zone?

Like daggx suggested, you must obtain the disclosure to see what evidence the police officer has on you, if any.


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Make sure that you were actually going 129km/h (+49km/h over the speed limit). If the officer reduced it, this means that you are facing a much different scenario. Can you scan your ticket (blank out any personal information). You can also check your ticket on the same line as "Licence Plate" look to the right under "Code" and if the letter "R" appears, that means it was reduced.

Also, if the 80km/h speed limit was orange in colour, this means it is only cautionary in nature and it is not a binding speed limit. Only speed limit signs that have a white retroflective background as prescribed by the regulations are valid.


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:05 pm 
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Thank you, this really helps.
- I did take a look at the ticket and there is an R written on the license plate line :(
- I am a fully G licensed driver
- If the reduced speed is an issue, am I still able to fight the ticket for failure to surrender the permit?


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:50 am 
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150 over the limit is considered a major offence for insurance purposes. If the officer reduced the speed from over 150 to under 150, that is a problem because at trial they can have the court consider the original speed you were clocked at. If that speed was over 150 then that would be a major conviction for insurance purposes.


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:59 pm 
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So should I take option two and plead guilty- submission as to penalty?
Will I still be able to fight the failure to surrender permit, because I have it and i don't want to pay for that ticket?


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Also, will the failure to surrender permit affect my insurance in any way?


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:50 am 
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CaseyCampbell wrote:
So should I take option two and plead guilty- submission as to penalty?
Will I still be able to fight the failure to surrender permit, because I have it and i don't want to pay for that ticket?


The charge is for not surrendering it upon request. Whether or not you have it after the fact doesn't necessarily mean you're not guilty. Usually, you want to handle these tickets together, especially if you're just seeking some sort of resolution.

CaseyCampbell wrote:
Also, will the failure to surrender permit affect my insurance in any way?


Yes. Some people are under the misconception that this is some sort of "paper" ticket and that it doesn't represent their overall driving. Your provider would disagree. They care whether you forget your insurance card, license etc. It shows you're inattentive and somewhat careless. It could be seen as a reflection of your driving.


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:48 pm 
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I would still plead not guilty and request disclosure to make sure the cops have all their ducks in a row. I would then meet with the prosecutor before your trial to see if you can work out a deal for a reduction. If the prosecutor won't offer you any kind of deal you can still plead guilty to the charges on your trial date and see if the JP will give you a break on the fine. The prosecution can't raise the speed on your speeding ticket unless you insist on going ahead with a trial, you can change your plea to guilty any time up until your trial starts.


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Speed limit signs that are installed by construction companies in construction zones often do not conform to the prescribed regulation size.

How would someone demonstrate to a Justice Of The Peace that the dimensions are wrong, when there is no safe way to stop and measure the sign in a construction zone ?

Also, in this person's case, they are lucky that the officer didn't double the fine as per the likely posted " fines-doubled-in-construction-zone " notice.

_________________
***I am not a lawyer, I have no legal qualifications and my opinions could well be wrong***.


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Re: 49 km/h over & fail to surrender permit MV- First Offens
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Also, in this person's case, they are lucky that the officer didn't double the fine as per the likely posted " fines-doubled-in-construction-zone " notice.

It was 7 am on easter Sunday. There were no construction workers or construction vehicles or tools etc... there were also almost no cars on the road.


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