My wife got a ticket for 117 in an 80, near Walkerton. Judging by the officer's notes, he was using the Decatur Genesis 2, directional radar unit. I sent a letter of disclosure in November. I asked for a copy of both sides of the officers ticket, a copy of the officers notes, proof of the officers qualifications for the Genesis 2 radar unit, and calibration and repair records for the radar unit. They only sent the copy of both sides of the ticket and the officers notes, nothing else. Is this a big deal, or not. The officer wrote in his notes that he is a qualified operator. I also asked for a copy of the manual, they also didn't respond to that part, but I expected that. I emailed Decatur and asked them when the officer presses the test button on the unit, if this only serves to verify that the radar unit is functioning properly, or if this serves as a valibration tool. As expected, they also didn't respond. Does anyone know where I can get an electronic copy of the Decatur Genesis 2 operators manual? I also asked for any other documents that the crown is planning on using against my wife. They sent a copy of her driving record, from the time she started driving. There are a couple speeding infractions from 10 and 15 years ago. Can the crown still use these to try to prove that she is a habitual speeder (I assume this is why they included this document in the response)? Is there a time limit when these documents are no longer viable? I want to ensure that my wife has a fair trial, but we are having a difficult time finding information out.
My wife got a ticket for 117 in an 80, near Walkerton. Judging by the officer's notes, he was using the Decatur Genesis 2, directional radar unit.
I sent a letter of disclosure in November. I asked for a copy of both sides of the officers ticket, a copy of the officers notes, proof of the officers qualifications for the Genesis 2 radar unit, and calibration and repair records for the radar unit. They only sent the copy of both sides of the ticket and the officers notes, nothing else. Is this a big deal, or not. The officer wrote in his notes that he is a qualified operator. I also asked for a copy of the manual, they also didn't respond to that part, but I expected that. I emailed Decatur and asked them when the officer presses the test button on the unit, if this only serves to verify that the radar unit is functioning properly, or if this serves as a valibration tool. As expected, they also didn't respond. Does anyone know where I can get an electronic copy of the Decatur Genesis 2 operators manual?
I also asked for any other documents that the crown is planning on using against my wife. They sent a copy of her driving record, from the time she started driving. There are a couple speeding infractions from 10 and 15 years ago. Can the crown still use these to try to prove that she is a habitual speeder (I assume this is why they included this document in the response)? Is there a time limit when these documents are no longer viable?
I want to ensure that my wife has a fair trial, but we are having a difficult time finding information out.
There is no valid reason for the Crown to deny you a copy of or access to the manual. At the very minimum you are entitled to view the entire manual at the prosecutor's office. Please see R. v. Vanier, 2005 ONCJ 318. The fact that they are not giving you everything you want is really good! The frustration you are feeling is exactly what you need in order to toss this charge... WARNING: Think carefully about how you want to proceed. The very minimum you must do is send a follow-up disclosure request again insisting (adamantly) that you must have the information you requested in order to prepare your defence. Don't quote the case above. Hopefully they'll tell you to get lost! The last thing you want is for them to give you the information. Then at least 15 days prior to trial you will file an application for a stay based on improper disclosure. You cite the case above in your application. Hopefully you can also attach an 11(b) unreasonable delay argument as well so that an adjournment is not possible. See my site for more info. Good luck and good fight!
There is no valid reason for the Crown to deny you a copy of or access to the manual. At the very minimum you are entitled to view the entire manual at the prosecutor's office. Please see R. v. Vanier, 2005 ONCJ 318. The fact that they are not giving you everything you want is really good! The frustration you are feeling is exactly what you need in order to toss this charge...
WARNING: Think carefully about how you want to proceed. The very minimum you must do is send a follow-up disclosure request again insisting (adamantly) that you must have the information you requested in order to prepare your defence. Don't quote the case above.
Hopefully they'll tell you to get lost! The last thing you want is for them to give you the information.
Then at least 15 days prior to trial you will file an application for a stay based on improper disclosure. You cite the case above in your application. Hopefully you can also attach an 11(b) unreasonable delay argument as well so that an adjournment is not possible.
Thanks for the info ticketcombat. One thing I forgot to add. The trial date is January 13th. Am I too late to do any of the things you suggested? What would be the best to do, given the tight timeline? I just thought all along that there was nothing I could do about them not disclosing all the info.
Thanks for the info ticketcombat. One thing I forgot to add. The trial date is January 13th. Am I too late to do any of the things you suggested? What would be the best to do, given the tight timeline? I just thought all along that there was nothing I could do about them not disclosing all the info.
Ok, so I'm running out of time. I called the POA office today to ask where the rest of the info is that I requested. Here's the answers I got. First the gentleman told me that he sent all the info I requested. I told him that I only received 2 of the six documents requested. I asked him where the proof is of the officers training on the radaar unit. He told me that he doesn't have that info. I asked him where the documents of repairs and calibration of the radar unit is. He told me that I would have to ask Decatur for that info. I asked him for a contact at Decatur. He told me that I would have to find that myself. I asked him for the documentation of verification of the accuracy of the tuning forks used to check the calibration of the said radar. He told me that the OPP no longer use tuning forks to verify the accuracy of the radar. He said that now the radar has an internal "self check" to do that. I thought that was odd. I have a brochure for the Genesis 2, and it states that the units come with 2 tuning forks, when first bought. I have read somewhere that the test button on the unit is only to verify that the unit is working correctly, not for calibration. Does anyone else find these answers odd, or am I alone here???
Ok, so I'm running out of time. I called the POA office today to ask where the rest of the info is that I requested. Here's the answers I got.
First the gentleman told me that he sent all the info I requested. I told him that I only received 2 of the six documents requested.
I asked him where the proof is of the officers training on the radaar unit. He told me that he doesn't have that info.
I asked him where the documents of repairs and calibration of the radar unit is. He told me that I would have to ask Decatur for that info. I asked him for a contact at Decatur. He told me that I would have to find that myself.
I asked him for the documentation of verification of the accuracy of the tuning forks used to check the calibration of the said radar. He told me that the OPP no longer use tuning forks to verify the accuracy of the radar. He said that now the radar has an internal "self check" to do that. I thought that was odd. I have a brochure for the Genesis 2, and it states that the units come with 2 tuning forks, when first bought. I have read somewhere that the test button on the unit is only to verify that the unit is working correctly, not for calibration.
Does anyone else find these answers odd, or am I alone here???
OPP has not used tuning forks since about 2004-2005. The tuning fork process is not even in the manuals and units do not come with tuning forks. The police do not calibrate radar. We ensure the unit is fuctioning properly by following the manufacturer test procedure. If there is a problem located during the test, the unit is taken out of service and sent for repair. All officers are now trained on radar before they even leave the Academy and subsequent training is every two years. Tuning forks were never to "calibrate" a radar. Tuning forks were used to simulate a speed of a vehicle at a known speed as there was no internal tests in older models. If the speed shown was the same as the fork, it was working properly. New models have the same test of speed simulation only done internally by a computer. If I recall correctly the tuning fork test could be plus/minus 2km/hr. The current internal test must be bang on!
OPP has not used tuning forks since about 2004-2005. The tuning fork process is not even in the manuals and units do not come with tuning forks. The police do not calibrate radar. We ensure the unit is fuctioning properly by following the manufacturer test procedure. If there is a problem located during the test, the unit is taken out of service and sent for repair.
All officers are now trained on radar before they even leave the Academy and subsequent training is every two years.
Tuning forks were never to "calibrate" a radar. Tuning forks were used to simulate a speed of a vehicle at a known speed as there was no internal tests in older models. If the speed shown was the same as the fork, it was working properly. New models have the same test of speed simulation only done internally by a computer.
If I recall correctly the tuning fork test could be plus/minus 2km/hr. The current internal test must be bang on!
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Thanks for the info Bear. Very enlightening. If the officers are refreshed every two years, I would still have to ask why they would not provide the documentation for this. Would the radar units not be sent in periodically for bench testing to verify that they are functioning properly?
Thanks for the info Bear. Very enlightening.
If the officers are refreshed every two years, I would still have to ask why they would not provide the documentation for this. Would the radar units not be sent in periodically for bench testing to verify that they are functioning properly?
I wonder if the manufacturer has guaranteed its accuracy through the service life of the radar unit, if the units have a written "service life." Funny that the unit has its own self-contained accuracy test. I'm sure it has an internal integrity check (internal circuits & processor check), I have no idea about accuracy. Radars I've used have a "TEST" mode but that only verifies the internal circuits, processor and display, and returned a specific test pattern. If it didn't display the test pattern, or "RADAR FAULT" was annunciated, the radar was not usable. Even if the test went okay, we were cautioned that it may still not be dependable. To verify that it was working properly we actually had to point it at something and get an actual return on the displays. If it didn't jive with what we were looking at, radar was also not usable. Our radars also had mandatory yearly bench testing. BUT... that's not the type of radar that police would use, so I'm not really sure it would apply here. Just my two cents, so my blurb there might be irrelevant. Main point is, Crown hasn't properly disclosed the requested info to you, much of it being relevant to your defence. You could always motion for a stay at trial. I'd give one more shot at getting disclosure, this time via registered mail or courier (Xpresspost... reliable, cheap; UPS, more expensive, but much faster & very reliable; Fedex, hit and miss) and show evidence that you tried three times to get the requested evidence and they stonewalled you. Here's some more info... http://www.ticketcombat.com/step5/stay.php
I wonder if the manufacturer has guaranteed its accuracy through the service life of the radar unit, if the units have a written "service life."
Funny that the unit has its own self-contained accuracy test. I'm sure it has an internal integrity check (internal circuits & processor check), I have no idea about accuracy. Radars I've used have a "TEST" mode but that only verifies the internal circuits, processor and display, and returned a specific test pattern. If it didn't display the test pattern, or "RADAR FAULT" was annunciated, the radar was not usable. Even if the test went okay, we were cautioned that it may still not be dependable. To verify that it was working properly we actually had to point it at something and get an actual return on the displays. If it didn't jive with what we were looking at, radar was also not usable. Our radars also had mandatory yearly bench testing. BUT... that's not the type of radar that police would use, so I'm not really sure it would apply here. Just my two cents, so my blurb there might be irrelevant.
Main point is, Crown hasn't properly disclosed the requested info to you, much of it being relevant to your defence. You could always motion for a stay at trial. I'd give one more shot at getting disclosure, this time via registered mail or courier (Xpresspost... reliable, cheap; UPS, more expensive, but much faster & very reliable; Fedex, hit and miss) and show evidence that you tried three times to get the requested evidence and they stonewalled you. Here's some more info...
The subsequent refresher training every 2 years is an "internal" policy only, not required by the manufacturer. I have never seen an old radar that is not accurate, range diminished yes. That was on the old MuniQuip MDR1, old "X" band, where it seemed you could throw a baseball farther than it could pick up a vehicle :lol: Our radar does not go in for routine check-ups, if that is what you call it. They are either working or not. I do not know where my documentation is about my training either. I would think it might be in a big filing cabinet, but I have absolutely no access to that cabinet. I do know the month, year and instructor on my last training day, I also remember my very first training day.
The subsequent refresher training every 2 years is an "internal" policy only, not required by the manufacturer.
I have never seen an old radar that is not accurate, range diminished yes. That was on the old MuniQuip MDR1, old "X" band, where it seemed you could throw a baseball farther than it could pick up a vehicle
Our radar does not go in for routine check-ups, if that is what you call it. They are either working or not.
I do not know where my documentation is about my training either. I would think it might be in a big filing cabinet, but I have absolutely no access to that cabinet. I do know the month, year and instructor on my last training day, I also remember my very first training day.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Thanks Bear. It sounds like you're very knowledgable in this field. I hope you don't take me wrong here, I'm just playing the devil's advocate. Why would it be that other measuring devices, such as scales and fuel pumps have to be checked for calibration by a technician, yearly, but the radar units used by the OPP do not need to be bench tested at all. I heard at one point that these units are good for one year once received by the manufacturer, then they have to be bench tested, and calibration tested. Do you happen to know when the OPP first started using the Decatur Genesis 2 units?
Thanks Bear.
It sounds like you're very knowledgable in this field. I hope you don't take me wrong here, I'm just playing the devil's advocate. Why would it be that other measuring devices, such as scales and fuel pumps have to be checked for calibration by a technician, yearly, but the radar units used by the OPP do not need to be bench tested at all. I heard at one point that these units are good for one year once received by the manufacturer, then they have to be bench tested, and calibration tested.
Do you happen to know when the OPP first started using the Decatur Genesis 2 units?
Switched from the MuniQuip MDR1 to the Decatur Genesis II and Decatur Genesis VP in early 2000. There have been subsequent models purchased Decatur Genesis II Select, Decatur Genesis VP Directional and the most recent being the Decatur Genesis II Select Directional. All manuals were updated so that tuning forks are not required. Again that is a redundant test. I do not know of any MTO scale, or fuel pump that has any internal computer system to keep checking itself like the modern radar has. Hence the need to be calibrated once a year. I have complete confidence in the Decatur products, the previous Kustom Signals Golden Eagle and the previous Muni-Quip MDR1.
Switched from the MuniQuip MDR1 to the Decatur Genesis II and Decatur Genesis VP in early 2000.
There have been subsequent models purchased Decatur Genesis II Select, Decatur Genesis VP Directional and the most recent being the Decatur Genesis II Select Directional. All manuals were updated so that tuning forks are not required. Again that is a redundant test.
I do not know of any MTO scale, or fuel pump that has any internal computer system to keep checking itself like the modern radar has.
Hence the need to be calibrated once a year.
I have complete confidence in the Decatur products, the previous Kustom Signals Golden Eagle and the previous Muni-Quip MDR1.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
The manual will do you no good especially if it's a copy. The officer only needs to testify he's qualified and the unit was tested and functioning properly.
The manual will do you no good especially if it's a copy. The officer only needs to testify he's qualified and the unit was tested and functioning properly.
But you just said its range after awhile was less than I can throw a baseball. And I don't even play baseball... Range may be diminished, such as in rain/snow, but the unit is still accurate.
racer wrote:
hwybear wrote:
I have complete confidence in the Decatur products, .......... the previous Muni-Quip MDR1.
But you just said its range after awhile was less than I can throw a baseball. And I don't even play baseball...
Range may be diminished, such as in rain/snow, but the unit is still accurate.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
I have read about the cosine error effect. From what I read, this can affect the reading of a moving radar unit. Correct me if I'm wrong. The target obtained by the receiver can be several degrees from directly in front of the police car. This will cause the reading to be construed, giving the unit the incorrect speed of the police car. Due to the fact that the computer calculates the "speeder's" speed as being the difference from the speed received of the "speeder's" vehicle, and the police car's speed (which might be incorrect due to the cosine error effect), the speed calculated by the "speeder" might be incorrect. 8) Has anyone heard of the "tracking history check list"? For stationary radar the checklist is: 1. Was a visual speed estimate made of the suspect vehicle? 2. Was the speed reading displayed consistent with the visual estimate? 3. Did the audio doppler tone match the speed reading and visual estimate? 4. Was the suspect vehicle out front and by itself when the speed readings were made? For moving radar operations, add 5. Did the radar displayed patrol speed match the vehicles speedometer reading at the time the suspect vehicle was tracked?
I have read about the cosine error effect. From what I read, this can affect the reading of a moving radar unit. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The target obtained by the receiver can be several degrees from directly in front of the police car. This will cause the reading to be construed, giving the unit the incorrect speed of the police car. Due to the fact that the computer calculates the "speeder's" speed as being the difference from the speed received of the "speeder's" vehicle, and the police car's speed (which might be incorrect due to the cosine error effect), the speed calculated by the "speeder" might be incorrect.
Has anyone heard of the "tracking history check list"?
For stationary radar the checklist is:
1. Was a visual speed estimate made of the suspect vehicle?
2. Was the speed reading displayed consistent with the visual estimate?
3. Did the audio doppler tone match the speed reading and visual estimate?
4. Was the suspect vehicle out front and by itself when the speed readings were made?
For moving radar operations, add
5. Did the radar displayed patrol speed match the vehicles speedometer reading at the time the suspect vehicle was tracked?
Cosine errors will only make the speed of your car slower, not faster. Your checklist is what the officer will testify to. Do not believe the internet hype that you can easily win a speeding ticket. Its one of the tougher offences to have thrown out. Based on where you are going with your wife's defence you'd be better off meeting with the Crown and taking a plea, if thats available to you.
Cosine errors will only make the speed of your car slower, not faster. Your checklist is what the officer will testify to.
Do not believe the internet hype that you can easily win a speeding ticket. Its one of the tougher offences to have thrown out.
Based on where you are going with your wife's defence you'd be better off meeting with the Crown and taking a plea, if thats available to you.
If the Crown does not disclose the requested evidence, that is often sufficient to stay the charge. The evidence must be relevant and the "applicant" (jimp2061) must have a reason for needing it so that he can provide a full answer and defence. Couple of excerpts from the R. v Vanier case: Also http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/20 ... cj318.html If the defence does not provide a reason for requesting the manual or access to it, the Crown may have a valid reason for not disclosing it. (R. v Sequin, 2007) However, I'm sure ticketcombat, DynamicLegal or lawmen can outline where and when this would be the case. At this point there is nothing to lose by continuing to trial. On the day of the trial, a plea-bargain can still be used if you want to go that route. The JP can also order the Crown to disclose the evidence. If they show up with the evidence, a motion for an adjournment to allow you to review it would be appropriate.
If the Crown does not disclose the requested evidence, that is often sufficient to stay the charge. The evidence must be relevant and the "applicant" (jimp2061) must have a reason for needing it so that he can provide a full answer and defence. Couple of excerpts from the R. v Vanier case:
It was obvious that the use and accuracy of the instrument was fundamental to the Crowns case. The photocopying of a portion of the unit manual and the offer of access to the balance was enough to minimally satisfy the prosecution obligation regarding the manual disclosure. To contend that a request for repair records was irrelevant because the officers evidence would be that it was operating properly, was clearly wrong.
Also
Clearly, the prosecution in the proceedings has a duty to disclose relevant information to the defence, to enable full answer and defence. While there is no duty to produce the irrelevant, the prosecution must err on the side of inclusion and produce all information that has a reasonable possibility of assisting the defence ( R. v. Chaplin 1995 CanLII 126 (S.C.C.)
If the defence does not provide a reason for requesting the manual or access to it, the Crown may have a valid reason for not disclosing it. (R. v Sequin, 2007) However, I'm sure ticketcombat, DynamicLegal or lawmen can outline where and when this would be the case. At this point there is nothing to lose by continuing to trial. On the day of the trial, a plea-bargain can still be used if you want to go that route. The JP can also order the Crown to disclose the evidence. If they show up with the evidence, a motion for an adjournment to allow you to review it would be appropriate.
What about the proof of service and calibration. I'm still a little confused with this. From what I understand the OPP no longer test the calibration with tuning forks, and they have not disclosed any repair or bench testing documents. Would this be a credible defence?
What about the proof of service and calibration. I'm still a little confused with this. From what I understand the OPP no longer test the calibration with tuning forks, and they have not disclosed any repair or bench testing documents. Would this be a credible defence?
He does have something to lose. Typically Crown's will not take a deal on the day of the trial. They've set aside court time, called officer(s) in (possibly on OT) and prepared for the trial. Not to mention the fine will be higher than if he just paid it. Testing on most radar units consists of pressing a button and the unit says "passed". Done. Unit working properly. Tuning forks are old school and unless you have an old radar unit they are not used. Case law is great but what is your reason for seeing the manual. Remember officers are not radar experts but radar operators. Big diference. BTW was your wife speeding or not?
At this point there is nothing to lose by continuing to trial. On the day of the trial, a plea-bargain can still be used if you want to go that route
He does have something to lose. Typically Crown's will not take a deal on the day of the trial. They've set aside court time, called officer(s) in (possibly on OT) and prepared for the trial. Not to mention the fine will be higher than if he just paid it.
Testing on most radar units consists of pressing a button and the unit says "passed". Done. Unit working properly. Tuning forks are old school and unless you have an old radar unit they are not used.
Case law is great but what is your reason for seeing the manual. Remember officers are not radar experts but radar operators. Big diference.
Never ever ever have police checked the calibration. Tuning forks do NOT calibrate radar. Tracking history is common use of radar, no big deal. #4 does not make a difference #5 some radar units have VIP attached, therefore this will always be proper...(ie genesis II select and directional)
jimp2061 wrote:
From what I understand the OPP no longer test the calibration with tuning forks
Never ever ever have police checked the calibration. Tuning forks do NOT calibrate radar.
Has anyone heard of the "tracking history check list"?
For stationary radar the checklist is:
1. Was a visual speed estimate made of the suspect vehicle?
2. Was the speed reading displayed consistent with the visual estimate?
3. Did the audio doppler tone match the speed reading and visual estimate?
4. Was the suspect vehicle out front and by itself when the speed readings were made?
For moving radar operations, add
5. Did the radar displayed patrol speed match the vehicles speedometer reading at the time the suspect vehicle was tracked
Tracking history is common use of radar, no big deal.
#4 does not make a difference
#5 some radar units have VIP attached, therefore this will always be proper...(ie genesis II select and directional)
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Ok Bear, I hear ya. Man, you're good. I think I know what your answer will be to this one... I have had absolutely no luck with Decatur. Can anyone tell me if the Genesis 2 Directional is guaranteed for life for never having to be bench tested? I have heard from another site that the radar units are good for one year out of the box, then the manufacturer recommends that they be bench tested by a qualified technician.
Ok Bear, I hear ya. Man, you're good. I think I know what your answer will be to this one...
I have had absolutely no luck with Decatur. Can anyone tell me if the Genesis 2 Directional is guaranteed for life for never having to be bench tested? I have heard from another site that the radar units are good for one year out of the box, then the manufacturer recommends that they be bench tested by a qualified technician.
The best evidence that the Crown has of the 117 in an 80 is the radar reading. If the radar is not tested properly or is not used properly, the radar evidence should be excluded. All of the information regarding proper test/operation is in the manual. Being able to ask the officer exactly what he did to test it and how he used it, and compare it to the manufacturer's procedure, is central to the question of whether or not the radar reading is reliable. What are you basing this on? The Crown offers plea deals on the day of the trial as a matter of routine. The court date is scheduled usually based on the officer's availability. They set these up for rapid processing. Every time I've gone to traffic court (twice for my own purposes, 10+ times as an observer), the Crown tried to plea-bargain with the defendants in speeding cases. The Crown has already paid the money and they don't want to walk away empty-handed. Not necessarily. Raising the fine to the statutory amount can happen but the JP can lower it, too. Some other provinces, such as Quebec, make you pay an additional surcharge for court time if you fight it, but not here. The max they can impose for a Part 1 offence is $500. The way to argue, upon conviction, for the set fine (or less) is here: http://www.ticketcombat.com/step5/sentencing.php That assumes that the Prosecutor successfully gets a conviction. Right now the disclosure is still not complete. If they do get disclosure of the relevant parts of the manual, the game changes.
The best evidence that the Crown has of the 117 in an 80 is the radar reading. If the radar is not tested properly or is not used properly, the radar evidence should be excluded. All of the information regarding proper test/operation is in the manual. Being able to ask the officer exactly what he did to test it and how he used it, and compare it to the manufacturer's procedure, is central to the question of whether or not the radar reading is reliable.
He does have something to lose. Typically Crown's will not take a deal on the day of the trial. They've set aside court time, called officer(s) in (possibly on OT) and prepared for the trial.
What are you basing this on? The Crown offers plea deals on the day of the trial as a matter of routine. The court date is scheduled usually based on the officer's availability. They set these up for rapid processing. Every time I've gone to traffic court (twice for my own purposes, 10+ times as an observer), the Crown tried to plea-bargain with the defendants in speeding cases. The Crown has already paid the money and they don't want to walk away empty-handed.
Not to mention the fine will be higher than if he just paid it.
Not necessarily. Raising the fine to the statutory amount can happen but the JP can lower it, too. Some other provinces, such as Quebec, make you pay an additional surcharge for court time if you fight it, but not here. The max they can impose for a Part 1 offence is $500. The way to argue, upon conviction, for the set fine (or less) is here:
That assumes that the Prosecutor successfully gets a conviction. Right now the disclosure is still not complete. If they do get disclosure of the relevant parts of the manual, the game changes.
Last edited by Radar Identified on Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
One has to remember that other sites and information in general on net in regards to laws is based a lot on where those people are. Such as a simple tuning fork, some places still require it, some don't. Some places don't recognize specific radar units unless they are passed through local gov't etc....think you get my drift. Some manuals are made specific to those areas as well. Some police have different procedures on use/qualifications as required by their province or state. Some go past the required and do extra stuff. (ie. OPP requalified every 2yrs, other forces might not be....maybe certain police do send their stuff back in every year, probably internal policy) End and short of it all. Radar is obtained certified, when/If it breaks down, it is send in for repair, fixed, calibrated and then sent back into the field.
jimp2061 wrote:
I have had absolutely no luck with Decatur. Can anyone tell me if the Genesis 2 Directional is guaranteed for life for never having to be bench tested? I have heard from another site that the radar units are good for one year out of the box, then the manufacturer recommends that they be bench tested by a qualified technician.
One has to remember that other sites and information in general on net in regards to laws is based a lot on where those people are. Such as a simple tuning fork, some places still require it, some don't. Some places don't recognize specific radar units unless they are passed through local gov't etc....think you get my drift. Some manuals are made specific to those areas as well. Some police have different procedures on use/qualifications as required by their province or state. Some go past the required and do extra stuff.
(ie. OPP requalified every 2yrs, other forces might not be....maybe certain police do send their stuff back in every year, probably internal policy)
End and short of it all. Radar is obtained certified, when/If it breaks down, it is send in for repair, fixed, calibrated and then sent back into the field.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
True, however if the manual is a copy (which it will be) it will not be admissible. You can ask all the technical questions you want but unless the officer makes an error in his testimony, in most cases, it will be good enough for a conviction. Crowns will take a plea deal on the day of the trial however not after it has started which is what was suggested in an earlier post. He can't say that he hasn't had full disclosure, JP doesn't dismiss the charge and then ask for a plea. Once it starts he's comitted to a triel. At least that's how I interpreted the earlier post. I have nothing to gain for my suggestions. I prefer easier, more foolproof methods. In my opinion, where he is going with his defence will not yield the intended results hence my suggestion for a plea. If her record is clean and he has a convincing argument he would likely be able to plea to 95/80, $65 and no points. Is it really worth taking a day off work, wasting hours of time on the net to beat it? Seems like a bad investment to me but if it all about the principle of the matter then I suppose it's worth it.
The best evidence that the Crown has of the 117 in an 80 is the radar reading. If the radar is not tested properly or is not used properly, the radar evidence should be excluded. All of the information regarding proper test/operation is in the manual. Being able to ask the officer exactly what he did to test it and how he used it, and compare it to the manufacturer's procedure, is central to the question of whether or not the radar reading is reliable.
True, however if the manual is a copy (which it will be) it will not be admissible. You can ask all the technical questions you want but unless the officer makes an error in his testimony, in most cases, it will be good enough for a conviction.
What are you basing this on? The Crown offers plea deals on the day of the trial as a matter of routine. The court date is scheduled usually based on the officer's availability. They set these up for rapid processing. Every time I've gone to traffic court (twice for my own purposes, 10+ times as an observer), the Crown tried to plea-bargain with the defendants in speeding cases. The Crown has already paid the money and they don't want to walk away empty-handed.
Crowns will take a plea deal on the day of the trial however not after it has started which is what was suggested in an earlier post. He can't say that he hasn't had full disclosure, JP doesn't dismiss the charge and then ask for a plea. Once it starts he's comitted to a triel. At least that's how I interpreted the earlier post.
I have nothing to gain for my suggestions. I prefer easier, more foolproof methods. In my opinion, where he is going with his defence will not yield the intended results hence my suggestion for a plea. If her record is clean and he has a convincing argument he would likely be able to plea to 95/80, $65 and no points. Is it really worth taking a day off work, wasting hours of time on the net to beat it? Seems like a bad investment to me but if it all about the principle of the matter then I suppose it's worth it.
I might've not worded my earlier post clearly enough, but yes you are right. We both agree on this point. Once the trial starts, the time for a plea is over. Prior to the trial beginning, a plea-bargain can be made. No one here really has anything to gain (or lose for that matter) from their suggestions. Pleading guilty to a lesser charge guarantees a lot of things. 15 km/h over yields the stuff you talked about but most importantly, for the longer term, usually will not result in an insurance increase depending on the provider. I agree with you that it is a virtually foolproof tactic, unless the Prosecutor has other things going on. Ultimately, time will tell what the outcome is. We've all made our points, it's up to jimp2061 and his wife to decide how they want to proceed.
Once it starts he's comitted to a triel. At least that's how I interpreted the earlier post.
I might've not worded my earlier post clearly enough, but yes you are right. We both agree on this point. Once the trial starts, the time for a plea is over. Prior to the trial beginning, a plea-bargain can be made.
I have nothing to gain for my suggestions. I prefer easier, more foolproof methods. In my opinion, where he is going with his defence will not yield the intended results hence my suggestion for a plea.
No one here really has anything to gain (or lose for that matter) from their suggestions. Pleading guilty to a lesser charge guarantees a lot of things. 15 km/h over yields the stuff you talked about but most importantly, for the longer term, usually will not result in an insurance increase depending on the provider. I agree with you that it is a virtually foolproof tactic, unless the Prosecutor has other things going on.
Ultimately, time will tell what the outcome is. We've all made our points, it's up to jimp2061 and his wife to decide how they want to proceed.
Wow, thanks for all the input and advice. Likely I'll try the plea bargain route for 95/80. That might be the safest idea. Ok, I haven't had allot of experience with this. Am I best to show up with all my info, and use it to try to bargain with the Crown? I have a few previous decisions, and appeals with regard to the disclosure. Would I just be shooting myself in the foot, if I let the Prosecutor know that I have this info, or would it work to my advantage?
Wow, thanks for all the input and advice.
Likely I'll try the plea bargain route for 95/80. That might be the safest idea. Ok, I haven't had allot of experience with this. Am I best to show up with all my info, and use it to try to bargain with the Crown? I have a few previous decisions, and appeals with regard to the disclosure. Would I just be shooting myself in the foot, if I let the Prosecutor know that I have this info, or would it work to my advantage?
I guess it depends on the Prosecutor. Since you've decided to go the route of bargaining, definitely bring all of your evidence, a BIG stack of it, notes, etc., so that if things don't go as planned you're ready. This is what I would do: Show up as early as possible, definitely in advance of 30 minutes prior to trial, and seek out the Prosecutor. Of course the common-sense approach would apply: Dress for the occasion, be polite and respectful, show your wife has a clean or mostly clean driving record, and is apologetic and remorseful. Stuff like that. Indicate that you're willing to negotiate. If he's hesitant, then I'd show him the stack of evidence (show him the stack but if possible try not to let him read it) and in a friendly way say that you're trying to speed things up and make it quick and easy for everyone. You may find this thread helpful as it applies in your case: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic545.html Does anyone have any experiences negotiating with the Crown that they can tell of here? Would be useful I think. I have a couple of them but they aren't that relevant here. Of course if the officer doesn't show, they'll probably drop the charge! Don't bet on the officer being absent, though, they usually show these days. Regardless, good luck with it.
I guess it depends on the Prosecutor. Since you've decided to go the route of bargaining, definitely bring all of your evidence, a BIG stack of it, notes, etc., so that if things don't go as planned you're ready. This is what I would do: Show up as early as possible, definitely in advance of 30 minutes prior to trial, and seek out the Prosecutor.
Of course the common-sense approach would apply: Dress for the occasion, be polite and respectful, show your wife has a clean or mostly clean driving record, and is apologetic and remorseful. Stuff like that. Indicate that you're willing to negotiate. If he's hesitant, then I'd show him the stack of evidence (show him the stack but if possible try not to let him read it) and in a friendly way say that you're trying to speed things up and make it quick and easy for everyone. You may find this thread helpful as it applies in your case:
Does anyone have any experiences negotiating with the Crown that they can tell of here? Would be useful I think. I have a couple of them but they aren't that relevant here. Of course if the officer doesn't show, they'll probably drop the charge! Don't bet on the officer being absent, though, they usually show these days. Regardless, good luck with it.
See if you can meet prior to the trial (not the day of). This way they can cancel the officer. Walk in with your wife and humbly ask to plea to a lesser charge. Use her good record and remorse as a bargaining tool and make a statement that you don't want to waste any more of the courts time than necessary (you're time isn't important). They have a job to do and aren't out to screw anyone. The more cases they get through the better for them.
See if you can meet prior to the trial (not the day of). This way they can cancel the officer. Walk in with your wife and humbly ask to plea to a lesser charge. Use her good record and remorse as a bargaining tool and make a statement that you don't want to waste any more of the courts time than necessary (you're time isn't important). They have a job to do and aren't out to screw anyone. The more cases they get through the better for them.
Hi so I have a bizzare situation. Today I received a summons for "being the owner of a motor vehicle bearing Vehicle Identification Number ###, failed to submit the vehicle, equipment or drawn vehicle for inspection or tests as required by an officer" for a vehicle I previously owned. Apparently a violation of HTA 82(9).
The date of offense is June 15, the summons was issued on October 26th and I…
Hi, I need some help for the ticket of lmproper left turn.
When i drove my car from east to west, intending to make a left turn and stop in front of stop line. There was a car in front of me, which has turn on yellow light. The light was turning red and then I thought I cannot leave in the intersection and turned, an incoming car was runing the light and hit me. No one got hurt but both cars had…
Have a ticket in which the radar used was a Genesis VP Directional. I had downloaded the manual for a Genesis VP but I now realize that the unit is not the same so it is the wrong manual. My trial is very soon so I do not have time to ask for disclosure of the manual.
Does anyone have access to an electronic version of the manual for Genesis VP Directional?
I was pulled over today in the city of Oakville for going 75 in a 40 zone. However, I am 100 percent certain that I was going only 50 in the 40 zone. When I was pulled over, I was driving my Dad's car which I felt was the reason I was getting stopped since two teenagers driving a 2013 S Class. He asked does I know why I am being pulled over and I…
I really need help on fighting my 9 tickets i received from one police officer. Here is some background of what happened!
I was caught speeding 66km on a 40km (school zone) on January 29, 2010. I was driving my friend's car and turns out she didnt renew the validation on the vehicle and didnt leave the up to date insurance paper on the car.
Hey question that I think here's probably the best place to get the answer:
I was charged with a careless driving offence in oct, trail in early april, so as of right now my insurance record is 100% clean... except the officer did file an accident report at the scene where I was classified at fault due to it being PI (although very minor). The person I hit did not sue etc, so the insurance company…
Very much unintentionally passed a stopped bus, with sign and flashing lights. Didn't realize I had done it until I was at the end of the bus. I'll save you my sob story, but it was truly accidental. I'm generally very cautious and have a perfect driving record. Never been stopped.
While I realize if a cop had seen me that I would have gotten a ticket, there were none in sight. Though I may very…
I was recently pulled over for running a red and I wasnt able to find my wallet in the car at the time to hand over my license. I had a passport in the vehicle that he used. The wallet was in the vehicle, it just fell through the seats. (Tough to find a black leather wallet in a black/black leather truck at night).
The officer still wrote the tickets for both he signed the one ticket (failure to…
I was passing a vehicle that was going slow for me and there was an oncoming vehicle coming at me. I speed up to get around the person I was passing and the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop who turns around and tickets me for going 110km in a 80km zone. How does it work with passing a vehicle? Once I passed the vehicle I went back down to my original speed of just under 100. The officer…
I picked up a brand new (old stock) Fuzzbuster a while ago at auction (wopping $5!!) and I want to mount it on the dash of my old GTO as a cool accessory when I show it at car shows. But I'm not sure if it's legal or not.
Here's my thoughts:
- It is early 70's technology (x-band) so it won't detect modern police radar. That's assuming no police force uses the old x-band frequency.
Hi guys, I'm still a little in shock of getting my first traffic ticket...
On Monday afternoon, I was returning from Toronto to Ottawa on HW416, I was driving about 15 over 100 like always. Then a car came very close to me on the left lane and made me nervous, I speed up unintentionally to pass the car and change lane, but while doing that a police car pull out of the median. He was hiding in…
May i ask this question regarding transport trucks limited to 105 km/h. Moving road blocks or safety?
IMO it isnt speed that kills. I find transport trucks infact help keep the road going. With cars that choose to not move to the right and slow down the middle lane the trucks would try to pass in their passing lane therefore the slower traffic would move right.
Received a notice from the police that a motion is being put forward to adjourn upcoming trial date. Notice indicates that an officer has sworn an affidavit that the crucial witness cannot attend date trial is set for (we know there is a social engagement at 7:30 pm for the witness, trial time is 1:30 pm). This further delay is a big problem to my daughter's case. She is moving away to…
This is what happened. I was travelling west on a four lane city street that was very light with traffic. I was making a left hand turn into a wide driveway of a business. There was traffic lights about 100 yards past the driveway and were red for the east-west traffic. I was in the left lane with my signal on and there was no oncoming traffic due to the red light. I was slowed right down…
I was driving my families older car and got pulled over, and the police officer informed me my plate was dirty. He issued me a ticket of $110 for the 13(2) act and obstruct plate as the offense. He informed me that such a plate could be used to avoid red lights as well as 407 tolls, also that buying a new plate can help to lower the ticket if I fight the charge, and that he also took a picture…
I received a red light camera ticket. In the picture, you see an ambulance in front of me with flashing lights. I had moved to alleviate the traffic behind me for the emergency vehicles coming behind it.
Is this a possible defense, if so, does anyone know any good case law to justify this position?
what happens if they charge someone for driving at 151Km/hr in montreal and they put for trial, appear after some months and sadly lost the trial ?
In montreal its $300 fine and 5demerit points ...
I heard Ontario and Qubec share the information. So once the trial is over ( and when the file moved to ontario) will his car gets towed and licence get suspended for 7days (later to 30 days ) ? and he…
I got a notice in the mail that trial is set four weeks from today, so it's time to request disclosure. I have zero chance of getting an 11b since trial is less than two months after the offense date and the officer did not reduce the charge. I really want to try and create delays on the trial, to reduce the chance of the officer showing up on multiple occasions. Is there any known loop-holes…
This weekend my father was involved in an accident with a transit bus in Burlington, ON. After the police showed up he was charged with "Fail to obey stop sign" Sec. 136(1)(a). At this particular intersection there NO stop signs but there are traffic lights. There is construction going on there so one of the light posts is smaller.
Driving conditions were terribly wet and visibility was low.…
So my boyfriend and I recently started dating. I have a vehicle that was insured. Insurance cost too much and I found it was just as easy to walk to work due to how close it was. But I didn't want to get rid of my car just yet, plus I'm still making payments on it as well. When we moved into our appartment together, I had it towed to my parking spot out back.
I was making a left hand legal turn on a green light, a driver came through the lane I was supposed to be going into ran the red and hit me head on as I was turning into my lane. When the officer came he was telling me that I was racing and driving recklessly because apparently there was reports of street racing in the area. I was not charged on the scene for this but I'm scared i am going to be…
I got a ticket for failure to surrender insurance because I did not have my new insurance stubs with me, just a bunch of expired ones. My policy number has not changed, so I asked the officer to just run the policy number so I could prove that I was in fact insured. He said they don't have that ability, handed me the ticket and reminded me that my car could have been impounded.
So I'm in a bit of a pickle and would appreciate if someone could clarify something for me.
I'm less than a month away (test on April 6th) from getting my full G license, and got a speeding ticket recently. The ticket was for 49km/h over the posted limit of 100km/h on the 403 in Oakville/Halton region, but was reduced from the initial ~60km/h over.
