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Keeping Quiet (" Complete Silence") : Police Traff
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:21 am 
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My dad owns a 2009 Infiniti G37 Coupe, It's his car, not mine, he's the only one on the registration and insurance.

Recently he went on 3 month trip overseas and gave me full permission to use the car while he's away. The problem is i live in Toronto and he's from Hamilton and the car is registered in Hamilton.

I'm getting a lot of heat from the police while driving the car around Toronto, they stop me, check the car is not stolen, i have been pulled over 6 times since Halloween. I got sick and tired of being profiled and stopped so during the latest traffic stop I provided the officer with my license, registration and insurance but kept completely silent when he asked the obvious questions of " who's car is this?" This made him extremely agitated and he threatened to tow the car away and have it impounded if I didn't speak to him and answer his questions. The thought of my dad's car being towed got me scared so I talked and was on my way within minutes.

So my question is: If I invoke my constitutional rights under the charter to not talk to the police, however provide them any documents they request, can they tow my dad's car away because they couldn't verify I had permission to drive it?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:07 am 
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The question is do you have proof the owner is your dad and not just some guy with the same last name?

Young guys in fast cars can sometimes cause problems and I'm not saying you are a problem. If the issue of the police is bothering you you can file a complaint with the TPS. If the traffic stops continue after that then you have harassment case.

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http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Reflections wrote:
The question is do you have proof the owner is your dad and not just some guy with the same last name?


Initially i didn't, however he has faxed me over a signed letter stating i have permission to use his vehicle.

I just don't understand why i have to go to such extreme as providing a officer a letter from the original owner to prove i'm not a car thief. I would be really interested to read where in the HTA it stays that i must prove i have permission to drive someone else vehicle, shouldn't my comments to the cops be enough.

Under the OHTA can the police tow away a vehicle if the driver refuses to confirm they have permission to drive the vehicle? Or in my case just keeping silent.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:42 pm 
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nexxen90 wrote:
shouldn't my comments to the cops be enough.


and people never ever lie to the police

Quote:
Under the OHTA can the police tow away a vehicle if the driver refuses to confirm they have permission to drive the vehicle? Or in my case just keeping silent.


it then goes into criminal investigation, to see if the person driving "has taken a motor vehicle without consent". Which does happen more often than many think.....parents are asleep or out of town and teen takes their vehicle for a joy ride. Raises more concern that the driver address does not match the address of the owner.

So the owner would try to be located by phone, or have a cruiser or another police service try and locate the owner. If the search for the owner is going to be extensive, then hold onto the vehicle.

Simply, keep the insurance, ownership and the letter with you and present it when stopped.

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:52 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
and people never ever lie to the police


This is why the officers word is trusted before a civilian......

The issue being raised here is: Why would nexxen90 be pulled over 6 times since Halloween????

Make some notes on the questions you are being asked and see if they are the same over and over. The officers usually are just doing their jobs, but they could be over doing it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:13 pm 
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you could try and go into a station and tell them about your situation.... depending on who's working the desk they could put a note on locals about it....


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:22 pm 
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Reflections wrote:
The issue being raised here is: Why would nexxen90 be pulled over 6 times since Halloween????

Make some notes on the questions you are being asked and see if they are the same over and over. The officers usually are just doing their jobs, but they could be over doing it.


- also could be several different shifts and a different officer assigned to a zone each time.
- maybe there is high break and enters in this area and then a vehicle registered "out of town" is there?

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Re: Keeping Quiet (" Complete Silence") : Police T
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:22 pm 
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nexxen90 wrote:
So my question is: If I invoke my constitutional rights under the charter to not talk to the police, however provide them any documents they request, can they tow my dad's car away because they couldn't verify I had permission to drive it?


Don't ever try that! Like Bear said the cop has many reasons to suspect you.
He can also make up any probable cause to impound your car, so do what he asks. Do not challenge a police officer, a good officer may turn into a bad apple if being challenged.

If you insist to invoke your constitutional rights, make sure you have your lawyer's number handy.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Reflections wrote:
The issue being raised here is: Why would nexxen90 be pulled over 6 times since Halloween????.


Excellent Question!

Just came back from school (studying at U of T) and it happened again, pulled over the moment i got off the DVP. This time i had the letter and handed it to the cop, she stilled asked me to step outside the vehicle while her partner decided to walk around the car and examine if i had any suspicious things. This time they were actually very polite and understanding, still doesn't excuse the traffic stop. I'm going try install a video camera in the car and start recording this traffic stops, put them on youtube, maybe just maybe if i flex my constitutional rights and talk back i might document something interesting.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:32 am 
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nexxen90 wrote:
I'm getting a lot of heat from the police while driving the car around Toronto, they stop me, check the car is not stolen, i have been pulled over 6 times since Halloween.


What part of Toronto are you living in? In some neighbourhoods, a university-aged guy driving a 2009 Infiniti G37 is going to get a lot of attention from the cops. If you don't mind me asking, what colour is the car? Does it have any slight window tinting?

The reason I ask is that the G37 and some cars similar to it are known to be driven by gang members and drug traffickers in Toronto, specifically in parts of Scarborough, Keele/Eglinton, Jamestown and Jane/Finch. They are also uber-hot theft targets, usually to be sold to the same people. There is a possibility that, for whatever reason, a flag was put on the licence plate. Any of those reasons may be the "trigger" behind the repetitive traffic stops.

Example: I live in Scarborough. One of my neighbours drives a black BMW. He's in his late 20s but looks younger. He's got money because he's some sort of computer animation guru with a film production company. He gets stopped all the time... and I mean, ALL the time, but it's pretty much limited to when he's in Scarborough and not so much around where he works.


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Re: Keeping Quiet (" Complete Silence") : Police T
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:25 am 
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nexxen90 wrote:
He can also make up any probable cause


probable cause

Is that not gone now, replaced by reasonable and probable grounds? And the 2 actualy have a slight different meaning? Or am i backwards?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:30 pm 
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I would just ask him if it was reported stolen? If not, "Am I free to go now? I have better things to do than sit here being overtaken by all those slow motorists I worked so hard at passing!"

...yadda, yadda, yadda...

Then from jail, I would call my lawyer! :P


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:40 pm 
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I find it difficult to believe, in a City the size of Toronto that you are being "targeted" as you suggest. There has to be some reason you are continually getting stopped. It could be your driving, could be something you or your friends are involved in or any number of other things.

Funny thing, if your Dad's car was stolen you'd be pretty happy the car was continually being stopped.

Quote:
maybe just maybe if i flex my constitutional rights and talk back i might document something interesting.


Sounds to me like you are looking for a confrontation with Police by your statement and your previous actions of "remaining silent" which didn't work out too well for you. I can assure you, your efforts to try and antagonize an officer to elicit an unprofessional response will likely produce the same poor results.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:34 pm 
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cruzmisl wrote:
could be something you or your friends are involved in or any number of other things.


Ah yes, blame me, surely the police are right all the time, I must be doing something wrong?
Why would I waste my time posting on a public forum if knew the reason I was getting pulled over, I came here to ask for help, not be accused of being a criminal in disguise.

cruzmisl wrote:
Sounds to me like you are looking for a confrontation with Police by your statement and your previous actions of "remaining silent". I can assure you, your efforts to try and antagonize an officer to elicit an unprofessional response will likely produce the same poor results.


Exercising my legal rights to remain silent is now considering “confrontation with Police”? Installing a video camera as an impartial witness in my dealings with the cops is confrontation with police? I find it sad that you consider anyone who stands up for their charter of rights and respects the law is considered, in your eyes, someone that’s looking for trouble.

Radar Identified wrote:
What part of Toronto are you living in?.


I live near U of T downtown, townhouse i share with 2 other students, however i work near Finch Ave W and Weston Rd area, i have been pulled over mostly in that area.

Radar Identified wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, what colour is the car? Does it have any slight window tinting?


The car is black with factory tinted windows, also has aftermarket dark color rims, looks like ghost at night lol.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Quote:
could be something you or your friends are involved in or any number of other things.


I said "could" and never accused you of anything.

Quote:
maybe just maybe if i flex my constitutional rights and talk back i might document something interesting


If you are going to record a conversation and "talk back" you are undoubtedly going to provoke a confrontation. You are doing this in hopes of posting it on youtube and the like to reduce the credibility of the Police Service you are dealing with.

Based on your response I can see why you are stopped all the time.

BTW no car comes with factory tinted windows. If your side windows are tinted you can be pulled over anytime, regardless of how dark the tint is.


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