4 summons

clover
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4 summons

Unread post by clover on

I purchased a used vehicle at the North Toronto auto auction, I supplied my insurance and was issued a 10 day trip permit onsite by MTO.
The vehicle was fit, plated prior to the auction. I had my son drive it to my home that same evening Nov 26 2011. with the trip permit firmly affixed as prescribed in the front passenger side window.
On Monday the 28th my son came and drove the car to the auto shop where I was having the vehicle inspected/repaired and later certified.
On the way to the shop my son was pulled over, the officer asked him for his drivers license and insurance. They were provided along with the bill of sale clearly stating it was proof of ownership (10days) the original ownership to be mailed by MTO. The officer would not accept the trip permit as valid as there was not a valid insurance slip with the make and model of the vehicle under permit. this is why a trip permit is of course issued ....because we cant get insurance on that specific vehicle until it has been certified! The officer was so angry that he really messed up on the ticket Issued in my sons name, and dating it 1988. the ticket was subsequently thrown out.
4 months later I receive a summons ( in my Name) to appear in court for
1) failure to apply for a permit on becoming an owner
2) permit operation of an unfit Vehicle
3) owner permit operation of motor vehicle without insurance
I have always played by the rules, never had a moving violation, this officer simply doesn't recognize trip permits issued by the MTO
I cant' afford a lawyer. please help


viper1
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Unread post by viper1 on

If you call your insurance they put a binder on the car for the ten days.(you called right?)
All the other charges you have proof that you did not do.

You have a good chance with this.

Cheers
Viper1
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use at your own risk"


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hwybear
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Unread post by hwybear on

well, looked over a bit of this and some things are both ways here

HTA 7(5)(A) permit for motor vehicle must be carried or a true photo copy thereof
HTA 11(2) you only have 6 days to transfer the vehicle into your name
HTA OREG 628 2(1)(a), prior to receiving a permit, a valid Safety has to be given to new owner. Safety has to have been done within 36 days prior to purchase
HTA OREG 628 12(1) MTO can issue 10 day permit
HTA OREG 628 12(1)(3) a vehicle at an auction can obtain a permit, if MTO authorized permits at the auction.
HTA OREG 628 12 (2) a permit is not to be issued if section HTA 11(2) is not complied with

so needless to say, is quite the interesting sections ....
- a bill of sale is not a "permit", nor can I find a "bill of sale" as proof of ownership
- never have heard/seen MTO mailing an ownership to anyone
- a safety certificate should be provided to you prior to a permit being issued
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


clover
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Unread post by clover on

Hi hwybear,
I had a valid permit ( and have kept it ) I have the ownership dated the day of the sale but I did not keep the envelope it came in.
The MTO sets up in a room upstairs at the auction, some 700 vehicles are sold there every other week to the public,
The the North Toronto Auto Auction Service obtains the used vehicle service packages and (we pay via service admin fee $75.00)
ALL ownerships are mailed out. by MTO, the ownership is transferred to our name at the date of sale but the ownerships are mailed.
They ask for your drivers license and a valid insurance ( not for the new vehicle) ...and I provided that
there was never in all my years any mention of a binder.
we fill out the application for a special permit pay the money and get the permit. There are 3 MTO agents going steady for 7 hours every auction.
Not all of the vehicles are deemed fit for a permit, I assumed they passed some inspection. Because the permit is issued.
But if the MTO is issuing permits without the necessary documents, and is by law required to provide the ownership on the day of the sale?
I smell a ripe lawsuit on a grand scale
Because i have never broken the law, and a criminal offense will cost me my job. Period.


Stanton
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Unread post by Stanton on

clover wrote:Because i have never broken the law, and a criminal offense will cost me my job. Period.
Just to point out, none of these are criminal offences. None would impact your ability to travel outside the country, etc.


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hwybear
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Unread post by hwybear on

clover - thanks for giving an insight into the auctions to all of us

Still wonder why the MTO has an outlet there, but doesnt bother having a printer to provide a permit (ownership) for the vehicle, but spends more money to mail it out :?
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


viper1
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Unread post by viper1 on

If you have valid insurance on a vehicle and purchase another vehicle the second vehicle is covered with
the same coverage as your prime vehicle. 14 days to do the change over.

It does not matter whether plated or not. You need the bill of sale though.

It is even better that you have a 10 day permit.

You did nothing wrong.

It will be written in your policy about the 14 day thing.(binder)

Just take all your papers when you fight it.

Cheers
Viper1
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use at your own risk"


clover
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Unread post by clover on

Thank you Viper.... and thank you all for your invaluable insights. this has been a real journey. I have some interesting results to share with everyone.

Yep my insurance covers me for 30 days from the date of purchase on any new vehicle. even if the insurance company is not notified.
The officer though is requesting the insurance be for the specific vehicle and on that date. My insurance for my regular daily driver was in the vehicle.

here is some very interesting information though. Regulations re permits and number plates Interpretation HTA special permits (24) (j)
It appears the MTO may at their discretion issue permits at the auction & exempt.... any section any vehicle any person see below.

(24) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations respecting any matter ancillary to the provisions of this Part with respect to permits and number plates and in particular,

(a) prescribing forms for the purposes of this section and requiring their use;

(b) respecting the issuance and validation of permits and the issuance of number plates;

(c) prescribing the period of time or the method of determining the period of time during which permits shall be in force that are issued or validated for motor vehicles or trailers or any class or type of either of them;

(d) prescribing fees for the issuance, validation and replacement of permits and number plates and of evidence of validation of permits;

(e) governing the manner of displaying number plates on motor vehicles and trailers or any class or type of either of them;

(f) governing the method of validating permits and the form of and manner of affixing, displaying or showing evidence of the validation of permits on motor vehicles;

(g) respecting permits and number plates for use, on a temporary basis, on motor vehicles or trailers owned by or in the possession of,

(i) vehicle manufacturers, or

(ii) vehicle dealers,

where the vehicles are kept for sale only and prescribing conditions under which the vehicles may be operated on the highway;

(h) respecting permits and number plates for use, on a temporary basis, on motor vehicles or trailers owned by or in the possession of persons in the business of repairing, road testing, customizing, modifying or transporting vehicles where the vehicles are not kept for private use or for hire and prescribing conditions under which the vehicles may be operated on the highway;

(i) prescribing when a permit becomes valid;

(j) classifying persons and vehicles and exempting any class of person or any class of vehicle from any requirement in this Part or any regulation made under this Part and prescribing conditions for any such exemptions;

(k) requiring the surrender of number plates;

(l) classifying permits, providing for the issuing or validating of any class of permit and the requirements therefor and for the issuing of number plates and evidence of validation and the requirements therefor;

(m) prescribing requirements for the purposes of subsections 11 (3) and (4);

(n) prescribing conditions precedent or subsequent for the issuing or validating of any class of permit or number plate or the issuing of any evidence of validation;

(o) prescribing the criteria for the issuance, retention and return of a number plate bearing a requested number. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 7 (24); 1994, c. 27, s. 138 (5); 2006, c. 33, Sched. M, s. 2 (2).


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Simon Borys
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Unread post by Simon Borys on

The section you've cited just says that the Lieutenant Governor in Council (not the MTO) can pass regulations into law respecting any of these things, but unless you can point to a specific regulation where they did just that, this section is not going to help you. This section is NOT about discretionary power vested in the MTO respecting these things.




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NOTHING I SAY ON HERE IS LEGAL ADVICE.


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