Hi, I was charged Highway Traffic Act 182(2), disobey sign, at Queen Street West and Soho Street. I read a lot online, and seems like I can have my charge reduced to a by-law infraction, (by-law No. 32-92, I am not sure which section). I don't mind paying as long as the charge does not go onto my driving record so my insurance won't go up. Do I need to have the by-law printed with me when I go to court in order to bargain with the prosecutor? What will the process be like if I want to bargain? What should I say to the prosecutor about this? Where can I find the information I need, I can't seem to find relevant info online? Thanks !!
Hi,
I was charged Highway Traffic Act 182(2), disobey sign, at Queen Street West and Soho Street.
I read a lot online, and seems like I can have my charge reduced to a by-law infraction, (by-law No. 32-92, I am not sure which section).
I don't mind paying as long as the charge does not go onto my driving record so my insurance won't go up.
Do I need to have the by-law printed with me when I go to court in order to bargain with the prosecutor?
What will the process be like if I want to bargain?
What should I say to the prosecutor about this?
Where can I find the information I need, I can't seem to find relevant info online?
What sign did you disobey? If it was for a prohibited turn, pleading to the bylaw offence will be of little benefit. Even bylaw convictions for prohibited turns appear on your driving abstract and result in 2 demerit points.
What sign did you disobey? If it was for a prohibited turn, pleading to the bylaw offence will be of little benefit. Even bylaw convictions for prohibited turns appear on your driving abstract and result in 2 demerit points.
It was a prohibited left turn sign, those that say you can't turn at certain time during the day. I thought bylaw infractions don't go onto my driving record, do they? So will the bylaw infraction conviction affect my insurance rate? Thanks!!
It was a prohibited left turn sign, those that say you can't turn at certain time during the day.
I thought bylaw infractions don't go onto my driving record, do they?
So will the bylaw infraction conviction affect my insurance rate?
Typically bylaw offences aren't a problem because they don't appear on your record. However certain bylaw offences where you're charged as the driver such as speeding, making prohibited turns and disobeying stop signs or traffic lights will result in a conviction on your record and demerit points. This means the offence will appear on your abstract and therefore could be used by insurance providers when they calculate your rates. Worst case it would probably be considered a minor conviction and some providers will overlook your first offence. It really depends on your provider/policy.
Typically bylaw offences aren't a problem because they don't appear on your record. However certain bylaw offences where you're charged as the driver such as speeding, making prohibited turns and disobeying stop signs or traffic lights will result in a conviction on your record and demerit points. This means the offence will appear on your abstract and therefore could be used by insurance providers when they calculate your rates. Worst case it would probably be considered a minor conviction and some providers will overlook your first offence. It really depends on your provider/policy.
Thank you for your detail information. Is there any bylaw infraction I can suggest to the prosecutor during the bargain that won't affect my insurance rate in this case ? Or do I need to hope that the officer doesn't come for the case to e dropped? All I know is bylaw no. 32-92 , and I can't even find this part of the by laws online.
Thank you for your detail information.
Is there any bylaw infraction I can suggest to the prosecutor during the bargain that won't affect my insurance rate in this case ?
Or do I need to hope that the officer doesn't come for the case to e dropped?
All I know is bylaw no. 32-92 , and I can't even find this part of the by laws online.
That particular prohibited turn has been repealed by the City of Toronto. Queen Street West and Soho Street [Repealed 2013-12-18 by Bylaw No. 1729-2013] http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2013/law1729.pdf
That particular prohibited turn has been repealed by the City of Toronto.
Queen Street West and Soho Street [Repealed 2013-12-18 by Bylaw No. 1729-2013]
I have found that it was inserted in 2014 http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0270.pdf So do I just need to bring this to the prosecutor and ask him if he is willing to reduce the charge to this bylaw infraction ? However according to Stanton, it will still affect my insurance rate , do you have any suggestions to not increase my insurance rate ? Thank you !!
The probability that the prosecutor will amend an HTA charge to a By-Law is close to zero. If by some luck you're able to get that plea-deal. The city rarely reports these by-law convictions to the MTO. A lot of people whom received by-law tickets for prohibited turns in Toronto and have never seen them on their abstracts nor red stars (demerit points) on their drivers' licenses. Another thread discussing by-law convictions: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/post23880.html If the crown has a reasonable prospect for a conviction, then you have nothing to lose by accepting a by-law charge. Have you requested for disclosure?
The probability that the prosecutor will amend an HTA charge to a By-Law is close to zero. If by some luck you're able to get that plea-deal. The city rarely reports these by-law convictions to the MTO. A lot of people whom received by-law tickets for prohibited turns in Toronto and have never seen them on their abstracts nor red stars (demerit points) on their drivers' licenses.
I have requested a disclosure through fax. However, I have never received one. I kept a copy of my request. I had also filed a request for an adjournment of first trial date because I had a conflict for the first tiral date with my travel plans, which was on 25th June. That is why my new trial date is on the coming Monday, 21st July. Due to the low chance of reducing the charge to a by-law infraction and without disclosure, what should be my next step? Since I did not receive my closure, should I request for another adjournment in order to have a proper preparation? I am pretty sure I will start panicking in the court room and don't know what to say, and also English is not my first language, I am very afraid to speak in front of such serious environment. Thank you !!
I have requested a disclosure through fax. However, I have never received one. I kept a copy of my request.
I had also filed a request for an adjournment of first trial date because I had a conflict for the first tiral date with my travel plans, which was on 25th June. That is why my new trial date is on the coming Monday, 21st July.
Due to the low chance of reducing the charge to a by-law infraction and without disclosure, what should be my next step?
Since I did not receive my closure, should I request for another adjournment in order to have a proper preparation?
I am pretty sure I will start panicking in the court room and don't know what to say, and also English is not my first language, I am very afraid to speak in front of such serious environment.
The attachment is the disclosure request I have sent, I have shaded all my personal info. And in the actual one I sent I have included my own address and my name at the bottom. Is that good enough ? I downloaded this on http://www.ticketcombat.com/step4/disclosurehow.php and just put my name and case number and all the info I needed in the form
The attachment is the disclosure request I have sent, I have shaded all my personal info.
And in the actual one I sent I have included my own address and my name at the bottom.
Actually, that is too much. Almost all of the information you requested is either spurious or doesn't exist, so your request(s) will not be honoured. For this offence, the only thing you should request is the officer's notes, and "any other evidence that the Prosecutor intends to introduce during the trial." That's it... unless someone actually witnessed the offence besides the officer and reported it. (Didn't sound like that happened here.) The problem with submitting such massive requests is that it basically allows the Prosecutor to argue, if they fail to disclose, that you were messing with the system. That's probably what they'll say... Anyway, if you submit another request, ask specifically for: - A copy of the officer's notes, typed if not legible; and - A copy of any other evidence that the Prosecutor intends to use in court.
Actually, that is too much. Almost all of the information you requested is either spurious or doesn't exist, so your request(s) will not be honoured. For this offence, the only thing you should request is the officer's notes, and "any other evidence that the Prosecutor intends to introduce during the trial." That's it... unless someone actually witnessed the offence besides the officer and reported it. (Didn't sound like that happened here.)
The problem with submitting such massive requests is that it basically allows the Prosecutor to argue, if they fail to disclose, that you were messing with the system. That's probably what they'll say...
Anyway, if you submit another request, ask specifically for:
- A copy of the officer's notes, typed if not legible; and
- A copy of any other evidence that the Prosecutor intends to use in court.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Thank you for your reply Since I will be having my trial on Monday, I don't think I will have enough time to submit anther request. Should I say that I did not receive my disclosure in court in case I don't reach a settlement with the prosecutor? Will I be given more time to prepare?
Thank you for your reply
Since I will be having my trial on Monday, I don't think I will have enough time to submit anther request.
Should I say that I did not receive my disclosure in court in case I don't reach a settlement with the prosecutor?
If you're worried about insurance rates, then any HTA conviction will raise it. A By-law "could" raise it, but it probably won't. You must resolve your disclosure issues with the prosecutor prior to discussing plea-deals. It's important to not accept any plea-deals until you receive full disclosure, and this is the officer's notes. His notes are essentially what the prosecution is going to use against you. If the officer is present, it's important that you review the notes with him so that you understand it. Officers uses short-form writing, and abbreviations that the general person may not understand. Keep in mind, there's the possibility the officer failed to take notes on that day, because of an emergency. Possibility the officer doesn't show up to your trial. Possibility the officer forgets his notes at your trial. All of the above may result in the prosecutor withdrawing the charge especially if it's in the City of Toronto, where they're pretty backed up. @Radar Identified is correct, a lot of the items in the disclosure request are unnecessary & over-the-top. If the prosecutor wanted, they can make you explain in front of the justice of peace, why you want each individual item. How each item is relevant to your charge? Something to the effect of who's criminal record do you want? Now you can say that you're self-represented and that you found this form online, and used it. The courts may initially bark at you but they'll understand why you used it. Lets say the officer and his notes are present. You can still get an adjournment (new trial date) to review the disclosure. This also gives you one more opportunity for an 'officer no-show'.
If you're worried about insurance rates, then any HTA conviction will raise it. A By-law "could" raise it, but it probably won't.
You must resolve your disclosure issues with the prosecutor prior to discussing plea-deals. It's important to not accept any plea-deals until you receive full disclosure, and this is the officer's notes. His notes are essentially what the prosecution is going to use against you. If the officer is present, it's important that you review the notes with him so that you understand it. Officers uses short-form writing, and abbreviations that the general person may not understand.
Keep in mind, there's the possibility the officer failed to take notes on that day, because of an emergency. Possibility the officer doesn't show up to your trial. Possibility the officer forgets his notes at your trial.
All of the above may result in the prosecutor withdrawing the charge especially if it's in the City of Toronto, where they're pretty backed up.
@Radar Identified is correct, a lot of the items in the disclosure request are unnecessary & over-the-top. If the prosecutor wanted, they can make you explain in front of the justice of peace, why you want each individual item. How each item is relevant to your charge? Something to the effect of who's criminal record do you want?
Now you can say that you're self-represented and that you found this form online, and used it. The courts may initially bark at you but they'll understand why you used it.
Lets say the officer and his notes are present. You can still get an adjournment (new trial date) to review the disclosure. This also gives you one more opportunity for an 'officer no-show'.
Thank you very much for the detail information, I really really appreciate it ! I know I have been asking a lot of questions and you guys are very patient and kindly provided me helpful answers. I will go on Monday and try to request for disclosure before my case starts when I meet the prosecutor, and try to get my trial date adjourned and discuss my disclosure with the officer if possible. Also, I have read a thread on this forum or maybe some other places online that a guy got a similar ticket as me, and at the court he was asked directly by the JP while he stated clearly that he did not receive disclosure, "Did you make the turn?", he tried refusing to answer but the JP kept asking the same question until the JP got tired of the that and moved the trial date to new date. If I encounter the same or similar situation, what should I say in court? Do I have the right to refuse to answer questions from the JP? Thanks !!
Thank you very much for the detail information, I really really appreciate it !
I know I have been asking a lot of questions and you guys are very patient and kindly provided me helpful answers.
I will go on Monday and try to request for disclosure before my case starts when I meet the prosecutor, and try to get my trial date adjourned and discuss my disclosure with the officer if possible.
Also, I have read a thread on this forum or maybe some other places online that a guy got a similar ticket as me, and at the court he was asked directly by the JP while he stated clearly that he did not receive disclosure, "Did you make the turn?", he tried refusing to answer but the JP kept asking the same question until the JP got tired of the that and moved the trial date to new date.
If I encounter the same or similar situation, what should I say in court? Do I have the right to refuse to answer questions from the JP?
That's an outright violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights. Most Justice of Peaces will at the very least respect the Charter and its associated decisions. 11. Any person charged with an offence has the right ... (c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;
That's an outright violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights. Most Justice of Peaces will at the very least respect the Charter and its associated decisions.
11. Any person charged with an offence has the right ...
(c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;
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