Last week I was driving though downtown and because of the slippery / wet conditions could not stop when the light was turning yellow to red and slid in to the intersection. I was hit by another car (near the headlamp). None of us were injured, there was significat damge to the cars. The air bags did not deploy. I was given a ticket that reads : Red Light - fail to stop - H.T.A sect 144 (18) Fine set at $260 and total payable $ 320. Should I fight the ticket on : a) grounds that the roads were wet and slippery with the duration for amber to red being short. b) the car air bags did not deploy or c) is the wrong amount of fine reasone enough for following the "improper ticket" route ? thanks
Last week I was driving though downtown and because of the slippery / wet conditions could not stop when the light was turning yellow to red and slid in to the intersection. I was hit by another car (near the headlamp). None of us were injured, there was significat damge to the cars. The air bags did not deploy.
I was given a ticket that reads : Red Light - fail to stop - H.T.A sect 144 (18) Fine set at $260 and total payable $ 320.
Should I fight the ticket on :
a) grounds that the roads were wet and slippery with the duration for amber to red being short.
b) the car air bags did not deploy
or
c) is the wrong amount of fine reasone enough for following the "improper ticket" route ?
If the ticket was issued by a red light camera, it will indicate the speed of your vehicle before entering the intersection. If your speed on the first picture was around 25km/hr on the ticket then you could say that you tried to stop safely but slid into the intersection hitting another car. The judge may consider the speed and the condition of the roads since it resulted in an accident. But your speed must be 25km/hr or under i believe for the judge to waive the ticket. of course this is based on a red light camera system. If this ticket was issued by a police officer i do not think you will win.
If the ticket was issued by a red light camera, it will indicate the speed of your vehicle before entering the intersection. If your speed on the first picture was around 25km/hr on the ticket then you could say that you tried to stop safely but slid into the intersection hitting another car. The judge may consider the speed and the condition of the roads since it resulted in an accident. But your speed must be 25km/hr or under i believe for the judge to waive the ticket. of course this is based on a red light camera system. If this ticket was issued by a police officer i do not think you will win.
Hi, Labmichael ... Thanks for the response.... The intersection does not have a traffic camera. There were no cops at the intersection. The cops came in after the fact, on account of the collusion. The intersection is within 200 meters of another intersection and my speed was not more than 25kmph. I was almost at a stop when the cars collided. Does the incorrect fine amount make any difference, like I have read in other cases on this board..... I am planning on filing a notice to appear... Is the cops presence necessary for a ruling.... Any other suggestions welcome. Thanks
Hi,
Labmichael ... Thanks for the response....
The intersection does not have a traffic camera.
There were no cops at the intersection. The cops came in after the fact, on account of the collusion. The intersection is within 200 meters of another intersection and my speed was not more than 25kmph. I was almost at a stop when the cars collided.
Does the incorrect fine amount make any difference, like I have read in other cases on this board.....
I am planning on filing a notice to appear... Is the cops presence necessary for a ruling....
Thanks Simon Borys.... Is the ticket invalid as it is for $320 and not $325 ???? "I was given a ticket that reads : Red Light - fail to stop - H.T.A sect 144 (18) Fine set at $260 and total payable $ 320." Thanks
Thanks Simon Borys....
Is the ticket invalid as it is for $320 and not $325 ????
"I was given a ticket that reads : Red Light - fail to stop - H.T.A sect 144 (18) Fine set at $260 and total payable $ 320."
The incorrect fine amount would be the best way of fighting this. There is a specific procedure that you have to follow. If you opt for a full trial, using the defence of "it was too slippery"... you're toast. The Prosecutor will immediately state that this is full evidence that you failed to adjust your driving for the conditions, and you readily admitted that you failed to stop for the red light because of your improper driving. The fact that you stated "I tried to stop but couldn't" will be turned against you into an admission that you were driving too fast. Airbag deployment or lack thereof will not help you. If the traffic lights were malfunctioning (e.g. went directly from green to red, or cross-traffic got a green while your light was amber) then you might have a case in that regard. I'm not aware of any case law that would support this.
The incorrect fine amount would be the best way of fighting this. There is a specific procedure that you have to follow.
If you opt for a full trial, using the defence of "it was too slippery"... you're toast. The Prosecutor will immediately state that this is full evidence that you failed to adjust your driving for the conditions, and you readily admitted that you failed to stop for the red light because of your improper driving. The fact that you stated "I tried to stop but couldn't" will be turned against you into an admission that you were driving too fast. Airbag deployment or lack thereof will not help you. If the traffic lights were malfunctioning (e.g. went directly from green to red, or cross-traffic got a green while your light was amber) then you might have a case in that regard.
labmichael wrote:
But your speed must be 25km/hr or under i believe for the judge to waive the ticket.
I'm not aware of any case law that would support this.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Thanks for the comments.... Seems like the "incorrect fine" is the best option I have. I have filed the "notice to appear" option 3 .. looks like I should sit tight ; may be ask for disclosure .... and do nothing... Where can I find the fine amount to be $260 + $60 Victim Surcharge + 5 Court Cost = $325 Total Payable ....? Is this the amount for the province of Ontario or does it differ according to the place of the offence.... What is the current status of the London v Young case rouling ...I have read at some places that the London v Young case is no longer valid .. am a bit confused re the current status Thanks in advance
Thanks for the comments....
Seems like the "incorrect fine" is the best option I have.
I have filed the "notice to appear" option 3 .. looks like I should sit tight ; may be ask for disclosure .... and do nothing...
Where can I find the fine amount to be $260 + $60 Victim Surcharge + 5 Court Cost = $325 Total Payable ....?
Is this the amount for the province of Ontario or does it differ according to the place of the offence....
What is the current status of the London v Young case rouling ...I have read at some places that the London v Young case is no longer valid .. am a bit confused re the current status
Set fine is the same everywhere. You can find it here http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/ocj/en/s ... /index.htm London v Young still stands. It has not been overruled.
+1 In order for London v. Young to be overturned, either the Ontario Court of Appeal would have to reconsider, or it would have to go to the Supreme Court of Canada. That hasn't happened.
Simon Borys wrote:
London v Young still stands. It has not been overruled.
+1
In order for London v. Young to be overturned, either the Ontario Court of Appeal would have to reconsider, or it would have to go to the Supreme Court of Canada. That hasn't happened.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Hi, I have recd notice of trial for Oct 2011. Given that I am going to take the "fatal error" ticket route, do you think I should ask for disclosure. Or should I let things be and wait for the conviction in Oct, prior to mounting the "fatal error" defence. The Notice of Trial also states the "set fine, costs and victim fine surcharge as indicated on you Notice of Offence - Total Payable $320" Thanks in advance
Hi,
I have recd notice of trial for Oct 2011. Given that I am going to take the "fatal error" ticket route, do you think I should ask for disclosure. Or should I let things be and wait for the conviction in Oct, prior to mounting the "fatal error" defence.
The Notice of Trial also states the "set fine, costs and victim fine surcharge as indicated on you Notice of Offence - Total Payable $320"
Hi all, I have recd disclosure, in person whne I went in to submit 3rd request for disclosure. I was told that disclosure was mailed yesterday. The court date is set for 5th Oct 2011. Is this sufficient to argue a defence ? The disclosure also has a statement for a person, who does not want to be a witness, which puts my position in a negative light. Can I ask the person to be present ? or have the evidence thrown out ????? While at court I read on the notice board that in addition to the set fine and victim surcharge, there is a court fee of $5. I was planning on using the "fatal error" defence for the ticket as the total fine payable is $ 320 on the ticket. Should the court fee also be included on the ticket and the amt be $325. Does this mean that the conviction paperwork will be for $325 and hence the total be correct ? If that is the case my "fatal error defence may be flawed..... I am confused ..... I would love some input from the experienced members .... HELP !!!! Thanks in advance
Hi all,
I have recd disclosure, in person whne I went in to submit 3rd request for disclosure. I was told that disclosure was mailed yesterday.
The court date is set for 5th Oct 2011. Is this sufficient to argue a defence ?
The disclosure also has a statement for a person, who does not want to be a witness, which puts my position in a negative light. Can I ask the person to be present ? or have the evidence thrown out ?????
While at court I read on the notice board that in addition to the set fine and victim surcharge, there is a court fee of $5. I was planning on using the "fatal error" defence for the ticket as the total fine payable is $ 320 on the ticket. Should the court fee also be included on the ticket and the amt be $325.
Does this mean that the conviction paperwork will be for $325 and hence the total be correct ?
If that is the case my "fatal error defence may be flawed..... I am confused .....
I would love some input from the experienced members .... HELP !!!!
Just an update... I appeared at the appeal court. The Judge inquired as to why I did not attend the earlier hearing & was more focused on why I did not attend the set date, including asking for a adjournment for the hearing. It was surmised that I made a decision not to attend the earlier hearing. The crown prosecutor while admitting that the total payable was incorrect by $5, referenced the London (City) vs Young case and stressed that the case dealt with "set fine" and not "total payable" and hence did not apply. I mentioned the fact the the total amount is material and that the JP should have quashed the Notice of Offence. I did provide reference to the Monahan case. The Judge seemed to have made up his mind and mentioned that he is not going to send back the case for "retrial" as it is a waste of public money. I was not given a opportunity to talk and the Judge proceeded to dismiss the appeal.
Just an update... I appeared at the appeal court.
The Judge inquired as to why I did not attend the earlier hearing & was more focused on why I did not attend the set date, including asking for a adjournment for the hearing. It was surmised that I made a decision not to attend the earlier hearing.
The crown prosecutor while admitting that the total payable was incorrect by $5, referenced the London (City) vs Young case and stressed that the case dealt with "set fine" and not "total payable" and hence did not apply. I mentioned the fact the the total amount is material and that the JP should have quashed the Notice of Offence. I did provide reference to the Monahan case.
The Judge seemed to have made up his mind and mentioned that he is not going to send back the case for "retrial" as it is a waste of public money.
I was not given a opportunity to talk and the Judge proceeded to dismiss the appeal.
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