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Ontario’s Demerit Points System and What it means for you
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:00 am 
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Ontario’s Demerit Points System and What it means for you.

The person or office in charge of demerit points is the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario. The Ministry of Transportation office controls the Ontario drivers by adding a system of demerit points to traffic tickets for such things as speeding and nearly all other traffic violation tickets.

Demerit points are issued from the Ministry of Transportation office in order to reprimand drivers who collect more than their fair share of driving offenses. Consequences of demerit points include the removal of driving privileges by the Ministry of Transportation office.

Ontario drivers who are considered probationary drivers can accrue up to six demerit points with fully licensed Ontario drivers being allowed to accumulate 15 demerit points before driver’s licenses are suspended. The Ministry of transportation office will suspend a driver’s license for 30 days upon the first offense of 15 accumulated demerit points. They have the power to suspend the license for up to six months for successive collected demerit points. Additionally, once a person has accumulated nine demerit points the Ministry of Transportation office may request the driver to attend an interview. This interview is a chance for the driver to plead their case against having their license suspended.

Besides the possible suspension of ones license, traffic tickets that contain demerit points have a direct impact on ones financial situation because the demerit points directly affect insurance rates.

Seven demerit points are the highest amount of one time demerit points received for a single incident and these are given for racing and failing to remain at the scene of an accident. Demerit points can be given in a combination, for example someone can leave the scene of an accident which carries a penalty of seven demerit points in addition to being ticketed for failing to stop for a school bus which carries six demerit points making the total demerit points for one single incident 13 demerit points. This single incident will land a person an interview with the Ministry of Transportation office for possible license suspension.

Demerit points from the Ministry of transportation office stay on someone's driving record for two years from the offensive date before they fall away.

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Re: Ontario’s Demerit Points System and What it means for yo
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:30 pm 
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admin wrote:
Besides the possible suspension of ones license, traffic tickets that contain demerit points have a direct impact on ones financial situation because the demerit points directly affect insurance rates.


I wouldn't say they directly affect insurance rates. Insurance companies do tend to treat higher demerit point convictions more seriously, but your risk rating may increase the same amount with, for example, a three-demerit conviction or a four-demerit conviction. They look at the number of accumulated convictions, while the MTO counts your demerit points and sends you letters.

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Re: Ontario’s Demerit Points System and What it me
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Squishy wrote:
admin wrote:
Besides the possible suspension of ones license, traffic tickets that contain demerit points have a direct impact on ones financial situation because the demerit points directly affect insurance rates.


I wouldn't say they directly affect insurance rates. Insurance companies do tend to treat higher demerit point convictions more seriously, but your risk rating may increase the same amount with, for example, a three-demerit conviction or a four-demerit conviction. They look at the number of accumulated convictions, while the MTO counts your demerit points and sends you letters.


Yeah, but in most cases a ticket means that the insurance rate goes up. Whether it is a 3 point charge or a 4 point one, the insurance still goes up. I think that this is what admin meant.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:14 am 
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Demerit Points directly affect insurance rates in different cases such as the difference between a 6 Pointer VS 2 Pointer Traffic Ticket is the Conviction type.

The points matter because the points can combine and put you over the edge and cause a license suspension, which is a definite insurance increase!

Also, Ontario insurance companies will not raise your rate just because you have increased in Demerit Points, however, they do look at the conviction type.

A 6 Point ticket in terms of conviction is worse than a 2 Point ticket in terms of conviction.

Always, plea it down or fight a trial. Don't ever think it doesn't matter and the Points don't mean anything. The worse the Conviction the higher the Points!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:57 am 
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The reasons you listed mean that the points indirectly affect your insurance rates, which is what I was getting at.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:15 am 
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I wouldn't call it indirectly, but directly since Demerit Points CAN directly impact your insurance rates by putting you over your G2, G points limit and resulting in a license suspension.

Also, the higher the points DIRECTLY means higher the conviction.

A 6 Pointer is definitely worse than a 2 Pointer in terms of a Conviction.

If by indirectly you mean they don't affect your insurance rates due to the Demerit Points itself, you are correct, but wrong, at the same time. Due to the suspension factor in which you can be suspended for accumulating a certain amount of Demerit Points.

I would argue they are more Direct than you think, due to the over all process of how traffic tickets and insurance rates work together.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:36 am 
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That's still indirect. Demerit points > suspension > insurance increase. The suspension directly affects your insurance rate. Same with the severity of the conviction, in an even more convoluted way. The severity of the conviction directly affects both demerit points and your insurance rates. If you drew a tree, "demerit points" and "insurance rates" would end up at the same level, but with no direct relationship. Again, this would be an indirect link.

For demerit points to directly affect your insurance rates, your insurance company's risk calculation would have to factor in demerit points. From reading and speaking with a few insurance brokers, I get the impression that this does not happen. I could be wrong about the risk calculation variables, but all your examples so far show an indirect relationship. "Indirect" does not mean to disregard demerit points when pleading down a charge, but does mean that, just because you plead down to a charge carrying one or two fewer demerit points, does not necessarily mean your insurance rates will increase less. Based on the insurance company's risk calculation formula, those two convictions may be classified with the same severity. An offer for a two-demerit charge in exchange for a 6-demerit charge is obviously an improvement, but if you have a very strong case, don't settle for an offer of "no demerit points," as it may still count as a conviction on your insurance record.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:45 am 
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Squishy wrote:
An offer for a two-demerit charge in exchange for a 6-demerit charge is obviously an improvement, but if you have a very strong case, don't settle for an offer of "no demerit points," as it may still count as a conviction on your insurance record.


Yes I agree, do not settle for a case when you can win! This is about when you can't win!

When you can't win you still want to reduce your Points. Why else would you reduce your points if you could simply win the case?

The point of it all is to watch your Demerit Points, because they CAN directly AND indirectly, impact your insurance rates.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:07 am 
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Well here's a scenario: you are charged with a prohibited turn, 2 points. Counts as a minor conviction on your insurance record. You have a bulletproof case showing that at the time the offence occured (and ticket was issued), turns were in fact not prohibited (maybe you even have a dashcam in your car like Bookm's Lincoln and there happens to be a bank with a digital clock at the intersection). Prosecutor offers you a municipal disobey sign charge (not dealing with turns) which carries no points and does not show up on your insurance record. By taking the plea, you can still make it to half a day of work and collect four hours of pay, instead of spending all day at court, paying no fines, but missing an entire day of work. Worth it in this case, but possibly not worth it if you are charged with follow too close, four points, and offered fail to signal, two points. It is likely that, while two demerit points apart, both convictions are treated as minor by your insurance company.

I still maintain that demerit points cannot directly affect your insurance rates. I have seen nothing showing that they do. Yes, accumulating enough demerit points will automatically suspend your license, which automatically raises your insurance rates. Just because they are automatic does not mean it is a direct relationship. It is the suspension itself that directly affects your insurance rate.

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Last edited by Squishy on Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:21 am 
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Demerit points > suspension > insurance increase. The suspension directly affects your insurance rate.


Indirect? Such as Demerit Points lead to Suspension which leads to increase in Insurance is REALLY indirect? :roll:

Here's an idea, get a Traffic Ticket, play with the POINTS, then see how much or not the insurance company raises you! :P

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:43 am 
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Yes, it is REALLY indirect by the very definition of the word. :roll:

If I got a traffic ticket, I would not bother playing with the points as they do not DIRECTLY affect my rates. I would play with pleading to other charges based on whether they were classified as minor or major convictions, or had no affect on my insurance like many municipal and "car owner" charges. Some companies have a third category even more severe than a major conviction, but I forget the name. Pretty much a "You did WHAT?!" conviction that results in immediate cancellation.

Actually, I would just pay the ticket and be done with it, but you told me to play with it. :P

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:58 am 
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Squishy wrote:
If I got a traffic ticket, I would not bother playing with the points as they do not DIRECTLY affect my rates. I would play with pleading to other charges based on whether they were classified as minor or major convictions, or had no affect on my insurance like many municipal and "car owner" charges. Some companies have a third category even more severe than a major conviction, but I forget the name. Pretty much a "You did WHAT?!" conviction that results in immediate cancellation.

Actually, I would just pay the ticket and be done with it, but you told me to play with it. :P


Yes, like it was said earlier if you read the posts above, direct points on your license do NOT raise your insurance.

But, Points DO directly affect your insurance rates when they can put you over and cause a license suspension.

Please read above.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:36 pm 
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Have you read the above?? :evil:

Quote:
That's still indirect. Demerit points > suspension > insurance increase. The suspension directly affects your insurance rate. Same with the severity of the conviction, in an even more convoluted way. The severity of the conviction directly affects both demerit points and your insurance rates. If you drew a tree, "demerit points" and "insurance rates" would end up at the same level, but with no direct relationship. Again, this would be an indirect link.

For demerit points to directly affect your insurance rates, your insurance company's risk calculation would have to factor in demerit points. From reading and speaking with a few insurance brokers, I get the impression that this does not happen. I could be wrong about the risk calculation variables, but all your examples so far show an indirect relationship. "Indirect" does not mean to disregard demerit points when pleading down a charge, but does mean that, just because you plead down to a charge carrying one or two fewer demerit points, does not necessarily mean your insurance rates will increase less. Based on the insurance company's risk calculation formula, those two convictions may be classified with the same severity. An offer for a two-demerit charge in exchange for a 6-demerit charge is obviously an improvement, but if you have a very strong case, don't settle for an offer of "no demerit points," as it may still count as a conviction on your insurance record.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:06 pm 
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Alright, let me try again with the definition. When you speak of "directly affecting" something, you are speaking of relationships. A direct relationship takes one step. Any more than one step and you have an indirect relationship.

Step 1: Oh no, 15 demerit points.
Step 2: License suspended.
Step 3: Insurance company raises your rates.

Also, consider this: D1 and D2 both accumulate nine demerit points. D1 successfully pleas for no suspension at the MTO meeting, keeps his license. D2 blows off the meeting and gets suspended. Assuming D1 and D2 are insured with the same company, do D1 and D2 both get the same insurance increase?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:39 am 
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OK, this is just arguing the small semantics.

Ticket < ticket with points < ticket with lots of points. That is direct.

Locked.

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