School Bus Driver's Report and 6 demerit points

I need to know in details since when (would like a link or exact info) police can't charge with 6 demerit points based on school bus driver's report?

Tx.

Section 175 of the Highway Traffic Act dealing with offences against school buses:

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic40.html

Unless the school bus driver identified the offending driver, the charge is laid against the vehicle's owner. Here is the demerit points table:

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com ... points.php

Police can only charge under subsections 11 and 12 if the driver is identified. Those carry demerit points. If not, subsections 19 and 20 are used, which do not carry demerit points. Same idea as photo radar and red light cameras: Owner is charged, but it does not go on the driver record (therefore no demerit points).

Radar Identified

how many year is this (this law) in effect????

A school bus driver's report is no different than any other witness or complainant making a report to the police that someone committed a crime which leads to their being charged.

A statement may be enough for a charge, but not necessarily a conviction. If the charge is challenged both parties must give evidence in court and the judge then weighs the testimony and all the evidence before him and determines if there is reasonable doubt or not.

Lady wrote:

how many year is this (this law) in effect

Since 2004.

Prior to that, the driver had to be positively identified for any charge to be laid. Now, if the driver can't be identified, a ticket is still sent to the vehicle's owner - if they get the licence plate.

thank you ... and wish me good luck ... I'v got a ticket for $490.00 + 6 demerit points based on school bus driver's report (who did not identified the driver or type of the car). My question is: since when police can issue a ticket using third party report without giving any demerit points. By the way I have a perfect 23 years driving record.

I'm going to court to fight this as I'm positive I did not pass the school bus.

I went to talk to the prosecutor, and now as I understand that was a mistake because she will try to correct the ticket. With 6 demerit points I had a chance to have it "squashed", without its bus driver's word against mine.

The police have no discretion over the points. That is an administrative function of the MTO. The police just issue the ticket and if you are convicted, the MTO will assign you the points. Neither the judge nor the crown has anything to do with points either.

Now I'm confused ....

1. Police officer told me that I am charged with $$$ +6 demerit points.

2. Prosecutor said to me that, as it was the third party who reported on this traffic offence, demerit points will not apply just the $$$.

3. you're saying that MTO is doing it (I'm assuming) after (if) I loose the case.

So who's right????

There are two different charges.

One is for the owner of a vehicle that is identified passing a school bus(bus driver's report) . In this one the driver is not identified so the owner gets the fine. This carries the same monetary fine but no demerit points

The second is for the driver when they are stopped passing a school bus.( such as a police traffic stop) This fine is for the driver and this one has the fine And demerit pts. The demerit points are applied by the MTO upon conviction. If you plead to this or are convicted of this offense the JP, or crown has no leeway to drop the pts.

OPS Copper

Correct. The distinction is the 2 different offences.

OK ... so I'm back to where I was. Policeman charged me (as if he was present) and not the vehicle. And to make matters funnier.. I was at work a 1/2 hour away at the time of the offence.. but have nothing and no one to prove that.

There is one guy who stars work before me, but when I approached him the very same day I've got the ticket (which was 3.5 weeks after the alleged offence), he said simply that he could not remember his own whereabouts that far in the past. May be if police acted faster I might have a chance with this coworker and could have a witness.

I am innocent so I'm working on a plan to question both guys, the bus driver and the policeman.

For some reason my package included a lot of information, including that of bus drivers name, address, phone number, occupation, birth date and his driver license number. I'm positive that was clerk's mistake to include that in my package. This can't be a standard eh?

Any tips?

for those to assist you, identify what you were charged with:

a) Fail to stop for school bus HTA 175 (11) or (12)

b) Fail to stop for school bus - owner, HTA 175 (19) or (20)

a) Fail to stop for school bus HTA 175 (12)

hi all, still waiting for your view on my situation?

Lady wrote:

hi all, still waiting for your view on my situation?

sec (11) OR (12)

Looks like they need a witness.

Cheers

Viper1

They not only need a witness, they need a witness to identify the driver for 175 (12). This does carry 6 demerit points. It is possible that the wrong charge was issued. Unless the school bus driver could provide a good description of you, enough to identify you, they should've used the part where you'd be charged as the vehicle owner.

Did you get disclosure of the evidence against you? This should have the officer's notes and info from the bus driver, basically telling you whether or not the bus driver had a good enough look at your vehicle (allegedly) to identify you as the driver. To get a conviction, the school bus driver has to give clear evidence about the offence, and identifying you. However, it is likely that the Prosecutor will review the case and amend the charge so that you are charged as the owner. In that case, the bus driver only has to give evidence about the offence and the vehicle - not the driver. Either way, the school bus driver has to be present and testify.

I did get copies of all the paperwork including copy of school bus drivers report. In his words, it was gold type vehicle but he did not see a driver, just the plates. My car is golden type but as I said before I was in the office at the time of the offence.

And what about my earlier question?

"For some reason my package included a lot of information, including that of bus drivers name, address, phone number, occupation, birth date and his driver license number. I'm positive that was clerk's mistake to include that in my package. This can't be a standard eh?"

I'm going to court this Friday, I will appreciate if anyone could answer these question …

1. Police officer besides charging me with the wrong subsection (demerit points) in his report constantly misspelled my first name; can I use that anyway?

2. Should personal information of the bus driver be in package which Ive got from the prosecutor?

3. Only info bus driver has which links me to this, is the license plates and colour of my car.

Id like to let you know that I had my chance in the court this morning.

I was out of the court faster than I expected. Police officer who charged me with 175 (12) was present. As was the school bus driver. Lady Prosecutor talked to a Police officer for a few minutes at which point he left (Im assuming she told him about wrong charge against me) . As there was not enough information to incriminate me and I plead not guilty they discharged my case.

Thanks you for links you provide here to websites which I found very helpful. I learned a lot from them and was ready for a fight this morning. I had series of questions for both the police officer and bus driver, had few reports like weather and Ontario Association of Optometrist (the bus driver is almost 50, so I was going to ask him about his vision). Had tons of pictures of licence plates similar to mine, Google provided me with different options and time it takes to get from place where offence took place and my workplace

Couple of days ago I thought about security company in my office and so Ive emailed them asking if they keep track of the time people swipe into their floors. And although they did not reply to me before my court appearance but I just got a phone call from them which put a smile on my face. According to them I was in the office at the time of the alleged offence. Im sharing this with you because if I thought about it earlier and had this info when I went to see prosecutor than she would throw the charge out at the spot and it would spare me a lot of tension

Lady,

How did you receive your ticket? e.g. by mail? Also, how long after the date of the alleged incident did you get the ticket?

Thanks.

Police officer met me in person at my workplace 3.5 weeks after alleged offence ...

Hi..today morning i was driving side by side with school bus for 3 intersections on low speed. He stopped using his light and stop arm sign which I could not recognize because I was beside him on his left side in 2 ln just 2 lanes road so,I passed without stopping . He came after me and asked why I did not stop? i answered sorry sir we were side by side and I could not see your sign when you slowed down .Then I think he was writing my plate number while we were talking. Does the driver have camera ? does his report give me dermit points? . by the way , I live in Mississauga Ontario, Canada