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Turning Left at an intersection
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:49 pm
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Image

First, I was waiting at the intersection in the middle, slightly closer to the stop line, but nevertheless signalling to turn left. Cars were going through one by one. Eventually, the cars were compacted on the left side by the time the light was green and almost turning yellow.

Image

Second, one car moved forward closer to the left lane, and another car with a man waving his hand (seemingly angrily at a jammed lane) but blocked my way from clearing the intersection.

Image

After person X's car and the car with the man waving his hand (who blocked the intersection to the left and prevented me from turning left) cleared by the time both lights were red or slightly afterwards, I was stuck in the intersection.

The car to the right was slightly hesitant, and slowly creeped. The car to the left of me accelerated a little, but I cleared the intersection. Anyhow, my mother freaked because she said I should've waited irrespective, or if I was able to know that the lane was blocked, I should've creeped up to the (man waving the hand) car, which is the car behind person X (the two cars blocking the intersection to the left), anyhow I did not have the right of way because the lights were red and if a collision occurred it would be 100% my fault. (?)

I am unsure, whether the right-of-way is assigned to
(a) The person that is blocking the intersection, while trying to turn left, but could not complete it due to an illegal block (two cars to the left under a green)
and whether I should've just stayed there and let the left car pass around me, and let traffic flow that way until I get a green (?)


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Re: Turning Left at an intersection
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Actually that image is inaccurate.

The road is changed now, the left lane is not as spacious (with only one lane), and the right lane has more space.
There's also advanced green lights (because lack of Soft S-Turns)

Image


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Re: Turning Left at an intersection
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
You did nothing wrong. While it’s illegal to enter an intersection on a red light, it’s not illegal to clear it. Some cities have bylaws that prohibit blocking intersections like the other driver did, but it's not illegal otherwise.


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Re: Turning Left at an intersection
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Stanton wrote:
You did nothing wrong. While it’s illegal to enter an intersection on a red light, it’s not illegal to clear it. Some cities have bylaws that prohibit blocking intersections like the other driver did, but it's not illegal otherwise.


(A) Even if I have the red light, and the oncoming traffic (from either side) has the green?

My driving instructor if I correctly remembered told me that blocking the intersection while under a green, going in one way-direction was not permitted. (I guess not then. . .)

However, if the car to the left did collide at me in the rear while I was clearing the intersection under such circumstances (A), would I be at fault?

15. (1) This section applies with respect to an incident that occurs at an intersection with traffic signals. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 668, s. 15 (1).
(2) If the driver of automobile “B” fails to obey a traffic signal, the driver of automobile “A” is not at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for the incident. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 668, s. 15 (2).
(3) If it cannot be established whether the driver of either automobile failed to obey a traffic signal, the driver of each automobile shall be deemed to be 50 per cent at fault for the incident. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 668, s. 15 (3).

Practically, my mother told me that I would have no choice but to
(i) During the green light, proceed slightly forward behind the blocking car, and turn after it clears
(ii) Back up
(iii) Stay in the intersection and slightly block the flow of the traffic until a green passes to turn

because
(i) Police wouldn't care about anything else except if i had the right-of-way or not - given RED or GREEN signals
(ii) It was my fault for proceeding and clearing, seeing that the car to the left is going pass me despite me being in the intersection

//

The council of a municipality may by by-law prohibit a driver or street car operator approaching, at an intersection, a traffic control signal showing a circular green or green arrow indication from entering the intersection unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (1).

Red light
(4) Every driver or street car operator approaching a portable lane control signal showing a circular red indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle or street car and shall not proceed until a circular green indication is shown. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 146 (4).

Left turn, at intersection
(6) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the left into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the left-hand lane provided for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which his or her vehicle is proceeding or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the right of the centre line of the highway and he or she shall make the left turn by entering the intersection to the right of the centre line or its extension and by leaving the intersection in the left-hand lane provided for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which his or her vehicle is proceeding where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by passing immediately to the right of the centre line of the intersecting highway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (6).

Yielding to traffic
(8) When under this section a driver is permitted to proceed, he or she shall yield the right of way to traffic lawfully using an intersection or, where traffic control signals are erected where a private road or driveway meets a highway, lawfully using the area controlled by the traffic control signals. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (8); 2006, c. 19, Sched. T, s. 6 (3).


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Re: Turning Left at an intersection
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 2881
Location: Toronto
Vegeance wrote:
(A) Even if I have the red light, and the oncoming traffic (from either side) has the green?


Correct. Lengthy explanation to follow:

Vegeance wrote:
My driving instructor if I correctly remembered told me that blocking the intersection while under a green, going in one way-direction was not permitted. (I guess not then. . .)


You cannot drive straight through an intersection if you cannot reasonably clear it on the other side in most municipalities, as you indicated here:

Quote:
The council of a municipality may by by-law prohibit a driver or street car operator approaching, at an intersection, a traffic control signal showing a circular green or green arrow indication from entering the intersection unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication.


But here's subsection (2) of the same part:

Quote:
(2) A by-law passed under subsection (1) does not apply to a driver or street car operator who enters an intersection for the purpose of turning to the right or left into an intersecting highway and signals his or her intention to make the turn prior to entering the intersection.


Quote:
Red light
(4) Every driver or street car operator approaching a portable lane control signal showing a circular red indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle or street car and shall not proceed until a circular green indication is shown.


Yes but that only applies if you have not entered the intersection. Section 144 (5) of the Highway Traffic Act:

Quote:
Where to stop – intersection

(5) A driver who is directed by a traffic control signal erected at an intersection to stop his or her vehicle shall stop,

(a) at the sign or roadway marking indicating where the stop is to be made;

(b) if there is no sign or marking, immediately before entering the nearest crosswalk; or

(c) if there is no sign, marking or crosswalk, immediately before entering the intersection.


If you are already past there, you are expected to proceed and clear the intersection when safely able. A red light does not mean "stop where you are," it means "do not enter the intersection." Think about that. If you are 300 metres back from a traffic light, and it turns red, do you stop right there or drive up to the stop line and stop? Same logic applies. If you are past those points, you obviously can't stop at them so you have to go forward.

Vegeance wrote:
However, if the car to the left did collide at me in the rear while I was clearing the intersection under such circumstances (A), would I be at fault?


No. If you entered the intersection on green, you did obey the traffic light according to the rules of the road. As far as your mother's options:

Vegeance wrote:
Practically, my mother told me that I would have no choice but to
(i) During the green light, proceed slightly forward behind the blocking car, and turn after it clears


If you are stuck in the intersection on a red light, you do have to clear it ASAP. An exception is provided for people turning left or right, in that you can be momentarily stuck there, but you still have to try to get out of the way. You can't just wait in the middle of an intersection on a red light. Try driving in downtown Toronto during rush hour. If everyone had to wait for a green just to move out of the intersection, the entire city would stop moving.

Quote:
(ii) Back up


That is a really bad idea. First of all, you will probably still be marooned in the intersection because the person behind you has now pulled up to the stop line, AND on top of that if you back up and hit the guy, you'll be likely charged with Careless Driving AND be 100% at fault.

Quote:
(iii) Stay in the intersection and slightly block the flow of the traffic until a green passes to turn


If you have an opportunity to clear the intersection, you must. Again, a red light does not mean "stop right there" it means "do not enter the intersection." It does not make sense to strand drivers in an intersection where they are blocking traffic.

Quote:
because
(i) Police wouldn't care about anything else except if i had the right-of-way or not - given RED or GREEN signals


Respectfully, your mother's understanding of right-of-way is not correct. You were already in the intersection and therefore had right-of-way.

Quote:
(ii) It was my fault for proceeding and clearing, seeing that the car to the left is going pass me despite me being in the intersection


No, you did the right thing. He has an obligation to give way to vehicles already in the intersection - even if he has a green light. That's what the "yielding to traffic" provision you posted above is all about. You entered on a green light, therefore you were lawfully using the intersection.

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* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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