Speeding Ticket (possible fatal error)

flyingfree234 wrote:

Hey what happened to your ticket? I got a similar ticket but I already asked for court date. It says "speeding" that's it and reduced ticket costing me $90 - she said I was going 70/h in 50 verbally but there's nothing to indicate that on the ticket. Does that mean I get no demerit points?

What city were you ticketed in?

London ON. I thought you had to put the speed on the ticket to dock someone?

I'm not sure that this is even a fatal error. The official short wording from the Ontario Court of Justice simply says, "Speeding". I was always told that not indicating the speed and speed limit only prevented the MTO from applying demerit points.

@flyingfree234:

Hi. Sorry for my late response. I took the "no action" route and on wait and see mode for 15-30 days as may be necessary, before I make my next move

Red

@Decatur :

Hi. I don't know how one could properly setup his defense to bring the case to trial without being properly informed of the complete offence or accusation against him. It would be a violation of his Charter right. That's probably the reason why POA 9.2.b is there.

Regards,

Red

Thanks! I agree how am I supposed to defend myself when they didn't tell me what I did wrong like what speed I was going at how much over etc? And isn't that document ie ticket legal so if they scratched notes on back, is that real evidence? I'm going call ministry tomorrow but I'm happy at least I don't get any points taken off potentially.

I've been trying to find the case law which outlines the elements of the offence for speeding. Not much luck yet.

@Red Cliff

The complete offence is speeding. No different than the charge of Disobey Sign. It doesn't outline the complete offence either. They way it was explained to me is that the JP has to find the offender guilty or not guilty of speeding first. The offence is complete even at 1 km/h over. The prosecutor then has to quantify the speed as part of the officers testimony by using some type of speed measuring device. (Lidar, Radar, Pacing etc.)Writing the amount of speed in excess simply speaks to attached penalty. This would be part of the officers disclosure, either from notes written in the notebook, or on back of the ticket.

Worse case is that the JP does not find a fatal flaw and you file to have the ticket re-opened.

Id disagree that not listing the actual speed is prejudicial to your defence. The alleged offence and section number are still shown on your ticket. The amount youre exceeding the speed limit by doesnt change the nature of the offence, just the set fine. Keep in mind Courts regularly allow reduced speeding tickets to be amended back up to the full amount at the start of a trial and that's not prejudicial to the defence. I think you'd be surprised at how much can be amended in Court.

Id still try the route of hoping its a fatal error, since it would be difficult to confirm if the fine is correct without a speed to match it to. Worst case it's not sufficient then you can try your argument in Court.

@flyingfree234 - Notes on the back of tickets is certainly proper and allowed. The back of the officers copy specifically states its for notes.

"SPEEDING KM/HR IN A KM/HR ZONE" I would have a hard time thinking that this item on the ticket can be considered complete and regular on its face when the numbers are so obviously missing.

If it just said "SPEEDING" then maybe, but how is someone to know if the set fine is correct without the actual number. If the set fine being wrong is fatal then by extension if you look at the face of the ticket and are not able to see if it is correct it should also be considered fatal.

Don't know how I missed it. The Court of Appeal in: York (Regional Municipality) v. Winlow, 2009 ONCA 643 (CanLII)

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/20 ... ca643.html

States that "The actual rate of speeding is not an essential element of the offence of speeding under s. 128(1) of the HTA. It is a particular relevant to penalty under s. 128(14) of the HTA."

I agree that the charge is the same and the kph over the limit is only relevant for the purpose of the fine. In fatal error land there is no trial or evidence presented and it's all about the paperwork (certificate of offence) being complete and regular on its face for a default conviction.

Aw that really sucks, does that mean I will most likely get screwed over and brought back to original charge? If I fight it in court? Does this affect demerit points if no speed listed?

I'm in similar situation and confused with above answers. I believe my ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says "speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone" under did commit the offense of( as far as I'm concerned it should simply say "speeding") and below contrary of "Highway Traffic Act of Ontario Sec 128". Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm concerned about possible license suspension and keeping a track on the case should I decide to force the fatal error. What is the best way to deal with it: completely ignore this ticket and let the JP to quash it or go with option 3 - request a trial and force the fatal error by not showing up at court? If JP overlooks the error and enters a conviction in my absence, I know I have to pay fine before filing for appeal. Do they give you enough time to pay the fine before MTO suspends the license?

nick12 wrote:

I'm in similar situation and confused with above answers. I believe my ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says "speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone" under did commit the offense of( as far as I'm concerned it should simply say "speeding") and below contrary of "Highway Traffic Act of Ontario Sec 128". Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

That is not a fatal error. That is is the most common short form wording of the offence and it's fully accepted by the Courts.

Stanton wrote:

nick12 wrote:

I'm in similar situation and confused with above answers. I believe my ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says "speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone" under did commit the offense of( as far as I'm concerned it should simply say "speeding") and below contrary of "Highway Traffic Act of Ontario Sec 128". Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

That is not a fatal error. That is is the most common short form wording of the offence and it's fully accepted by the Courts.

Thank you for your help. Much appreciated.

Hi everyone,

Thank you for sharing your opinion on the issue. I haven't received any feedback/decision yet. I took the "ignore the ticket route". I'll update this thread once I hear from them.

Regards,

Red

Total Payable = Set Fine + Victim Surcharge + $5.00

In my opinion you should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS request a trial date with officer present because it gives you more time to think about what you want to do AND lets you request disclosure of the officers notes to see if there are any issues (like did not test radar unit) AND lets you make sure the Certificate of Offense was filed within 7 days. You can always choose to just not show up to the trial date, so it does not impact you negatively at all.

If you are SURE there is a fatal error on the ticket then you can still request a trial date, but just DO NOT SHOW UP. The Justice should quash the ticket because it is not regular on its face. If you show up, then the prosecutor/Justice can amend and fix the ticket, but if you do not show up then the ticket can not be amended.

If the Justice does not quash the ticket, then you can appeal because the Justice made an error at law and should have quashed because it was not regular on its face.

*** This is not legal advice, just my opinion. ***

Hi. I just would like to give an update... Today, I called the Provincial Offence Office to check on the status of my ticket. Today is the 19th day from the deadline date I had to exercise any of the 3 options earlier given me (plead guilty, early resolution, or trial) where I chose a fourth route and ignore the ticket. The lady in said office checked the files and advised me that the police officer has not filed the same. I was also told that said police officer only had within 6 or 7 days (I forgot which is the exact number of days I was told) for filing, otherwise, a summon may be served upon me within 6 months (did not get the details of this). I'm just hoping that the 6 month period will lapse.

So, if I opted to arrange a trial date and did not show up, I would have been in a riskier position, right?

Thanks to everyone for your guidance.

Red

If the officer didn't file the ticket, it doesn't matter what option you selected. The Courts aren't able to do anything if the ticket isn't filed within 7 days.

@ Stanton: Noted with thanks.

So I just have to wait if nothing happens within 6 months, then I'm fine.

Thanks again for all your helpful inputs.

Regards,

Red

I suspect the officer noticed the error and shredded the ticket, moving on to other things. None of us like getting quashed tickets back.

I know this is an old thread, but I am in the exact same situation as the OP. However, I was send a notice of conviction. As of right now, I am not sure if I should file an appeal or not. The conviction is for speeding. The rest (km/h in a km/h zone) are only details as to the sentence (fine). If I appeal, will I win on the sentence (speed not listed, however, there is a speed listed in the "code" box (R,106)) and lose on conviction? I hope that is clear enough for everyone to understand. And Thanks in advance!!

You only have something like 15 or 30 days to appeal (I think its 30), so make sure you get on it as soon as possible.

Can you scan and post the original ticket here so we can see it (blank out personal details).

I just received my notice of conviction, and I have until april 4 to file. I have a notice of appeal in my hands, but I don't want to bother if it is only going to be a waste of my time. Also, it's not the money I am worried about, just the conviction. So???

Thanks Jsherk and anyone else looking at this!!

I would go ahead and file the appeal. In order for the ticket to be valid the set fine has to match the offence shown on the face of the ticket. I think you have a strong argument that the set fine does not match the offence on that ticket since no speed is listed. In this case I can't say for sure how the appeals court will rule, but if it were me I would definitely give it a shot. If you win on appeal the ticket will be quashed and will not show on your driving record.

Yes appeal and you should win.

I have a court date for june 9. I will get back with all the details of the appearance. Thanks everyone

Had court this morning. As expected, the prosecutor withdrew the charge as it was not regular on its face. Thanks to everyone for their information and support.

Court system working as it should. Thanks for letting us know the outcome.

Congratulations on the win!

This was an APPEAL hearing, correct?