Speeding Ticket (possible fatal error)

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daggx
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Re: Speeding Ticket (possible fatal error)

Unread post by daggx on

flyingfree234 wrote:Hey what happened to your ticket? I got a similar ticket but I already asked for court date. It says "speeding" that's it and reduced ticket costing me $90 - she said I was going 70/h in 50 verbally but there's nothing to indicate that on the ticket. Does that mean I get no demerit points?
What city were you ticketed in?


flyingfree234
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Unread post by flyingfree234 on

London ON. I thought you had to put the speed on the ticket to dock someone?


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Decatur
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Unread post by Decatur on

I'm not sure that this is even a fatal error. The official short wording from the Ontario Court of Justice simply says, "Speeding". I was always told that not indicating the speed and speed limit only prevented the MTO from applying demerit points.


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Unread post by Red Cliff on

@flyingfree234:

Hi. Sorry for my late response. I took the "no action" route and on wait and see mode for 15-30 days as may be necessary, before I make my next move

Red


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Unread post by Red Cliff on

@Decatur :

Hi. I don't know how one could properly setup his defense to bring the case to trial without being properly informed of the complete offence or accusation against him. It would be a violation of his Charter right. That's probably the reason why POA 9.2.b is there.

Regards,

Red


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Unread post by flyingfree234 on

Thanks! I agree how am I supposed to defend myself when they didn't tell me what I did wrong like what speed I was going at how much over etc? And isn't that document ie ticket legal so if they scratched notes on back, is that real evidence? I'm going call ministry tomorrow but I'm happy at least I don't get any points taken off potentially.


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Unread post by Decatur on

I've been trying to find the case law which outlines the elements of the offence for speeding. Not much luck yet.
@Red Cliff
The complete offence is speeding. No different than the charge of Disobey Sign. It doesn't outline the complete offence either. They way it was explained to me is that the JP has to find the offender guilty or not guilty of speeding first. The offence is complete even at 1 km/h over. The prosecutor then has to quantify the speed as part of the officers testimony by using some type of speed measuring device. (Lidar, Radar, Pacing etc.)Writing the amount of speed in excess simply speaks to attached penalty. This would be part of the officers disclosure, either from notes written in the notebook, or on back of the ticket.

Worse case is that the JP does not find a fatal flaw and you file to have the ticket re-opened.


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Unread post by Stanton on

I’d disagree that not listing the actual speed is prejudicial to your defence. The alleged offence and section number are still shown on your ticket. The amount you’re exceeding the speed limit by doesn’t change the nature of the offence, just the set fine. Keep in mind Courts regularly allow reduced speeding tickets to be amended back up to the full amount at the start of a trial and that's not prejudicial to the defence. I think you'd be surprised at how much can be amended in Court.

I’d still try the route of hoping it’s a fatal error, since it would be difficult to confirm if the fine is correct without a speed to match it to. Worst case it's not sufficient then you can try your argument in Court.

@flyingfree234 - Notes on the back of tickets is certainly proper and allowed. The back of the officer’s copy specifically states it’s for notes.


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Unread post by ynotp on

"SPEEDING KM/HR IN A KM/HR ZONE" I would have a hard time thinking that this item on the ticket can be considered complete and regular on its face when the numbers are so obviously missing.

If it just said "SPEEDING" then maybe, but how is someone to know if the set fine is correct without the actual number. If the set fine being wrong is fatal then by extension if you look at the face of the ticket and are not able to see if it is correct it should also be considered fatal.


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Unread post by Decatur on

Don't know how I missed it. The Court of Appeal in: York (Regional Municipality) v. Winlow, 2009 ONCA 643 (CanLII)
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/20 ... ca643.html
States that "The actual rate of speeding is not an essential element of the offence of speeding under s. 128(1) of the HTA. It is a particular relevant to penalty under s. 128(14) of the HTA."


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Unread post by ynotp on

I agree that the charge is the same and the kph over the limit is only relevant for the purpose of the fine. In fatal error land there is no trial or evidence presented and it's all about the paperwork (certificate of offence) being complete and regular on its face for a default conviction.


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Unread post by flyingfree234 on

Aw that really sucks, does that mean I will most likely get screwed over and brought back to original charge? If I fight it in court? Does this affect demerit points if no speed listed?


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Unread post by nick12 on

I'm in similar situation and confused with above answers. I believe my ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says "speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone" under did commit the offense of( as far as I'm concerned it should simply say "speeding") and below contrary of "Highway Traffic Act of Ontario Sec 128". Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm concerned about possible license suspension and keeping a track on the case should I decide to force the fatal error. What is the best way to deal with it: completely ignore this ticket and let the JP to quash it or go with option 3 - request a trial and force the fatal error by not showing up at court? If JP overlooks the error and enters a conviction in my absence, I know I have to pay fine before filing for appeal. Do they give you enough time to pay the fine before MTO suspends the license?


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Unread post by Stanton on

nick12 wrote:I'm in similar situation and confused with above answers. I believe my ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says "speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone" under did commit the offense of( as far as I'm concerned it should simply say "speeding") and below contrary of "Highway Traffic Act of Ontario Sec 128". Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
That is not a fatal error. That is is the most common short form wording of the offence and it's fully accepted by the Courts.


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Unread post by nick12 on

Stanton wrote:
nick12 wrote:I'm in similar situation and confused with above answers. I believe my ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says "speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone" under did commit the offense of( as far as I'm concerned it should simply say "speeding") and below contrary of "Highway Traffic Act of Ontario Sec 128". Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
That is not a fatal error. That is is the most common short form wording of the offence and it's fully accepted by the Courts.
Thank you for your help. Much appreciated.






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