Radar Identified wrote:

"3 pieces of identification" is Sovereign Citizen horse s***.

I totally agree.

Thankfully, the Sovereign Citizen (aka. Freeman) arguments are being readily dismissed by the courts now. After the decision in Meads v. Meads, which has been adapted in Ontario by several courts now, including R. v. Ainsworth, their arguments truly are treated like the horse s*** they really are!

The most entertaining decision dealing with the Sovereign Citizen argument is definitely R. v. Duncan.

I highly recommend everyone read the Duncan decision---especially the footnotes: the judge is hilarious!!! Its a work of literary art!

jsherk wrote:

argyll wrote:

Their name would be on the paper that you were served.

CORRECTION: What I meant to say was "If an officer were to violate my charter rights at say a RIDE checkpoint but did NOT lay a charge, then I would not know who they were."

I am not disagreeing with anybody's comments here.

My question again would be:

Is it an unreasonable request to ask an officer for their name and badge number IF neither were easily visible? I would suggest that this is completely reasonable request.

I agree. I have never had a problem giving my name and badge number. Same as being video-taped, I'm doing nothing wrong so fill your boots. I might seize your cell phone if the footage is evidence of a charge such as resist arrest but that's the risk you take. No different than CCTV.

@highwaystar - I have previously read Meads v Meads. The other two are good reads as well, and yes the Duncan one is especially entertaining!

In R. v. Ainsworth it makes mention of R. v. Duncan 2012 O.J. No. 6405 which is different from the the one you mention of R. v. Duncan, 2013 ONCJ 160)

But I cannot find R. v. Duncan 2012 O.J. No. 6405 on Canlii ... anybody know what happened to it and where it can be found?

jsherk wrote:

Is it an unreasonable request to ask an officer for their name and badge number IF neither were easily visible? I would suggest that this is completely reasonable request.

That is a reasonable request. I don't see anything wrong with it.

highwaystar wrote:

Thankfully, the Sovereign Citizen (aka. Freeman) arguments are being readily dismissed by the courts now. After the decision in Meads v. Meads, which has been adapted in Ontario by several courts now, including R. v. Ainsworth, their arguments truly are treated like the horse s*** they really are!

Oh yes, the Duncan decision was hilarious. BTW - when I lived in Michigan, I volunteered with an organization that, among other things, documented and tracked the actions of so-called "Sovereign Citizens." This was long before their relatively recent growth in Canada, so I was quite familiar with their tactics a LONG time ago. What's dangerous is that their adherents actually believe that these things are correct, and people died as a result (e.g. the shooting death of the two officers in West Memphis a few years ago).

I spoke with an OPP Inspector today and had a good chat about this identification issue.

He said that as far as he knows there is NO act/statute/regulation that REQUIRES a uniformed police officer to identify themselves to you when you ask, but he would have no issue giving his name and badge number if somebody asked.

All Police are required to carry their warrant card and badge on them when they are on duty, but there is no obligation for a uniformed police officer to show it if you ask.

However he said that OPP policy requires that they wear a name tag (first initial and last name) which should be clearly visible on the outside of their uniform or jacket, so it would not be an issue to ask an officer their name or to see the name tag if it was not clearly visible.

He also confirmed that this was for OPP only and each police force would have their own policy on uniform and where/how identification was displayed.

yo,

if I'm in ma ride, and like yo 5 0 is behind me and they light me up.

you want I should ask him for his ID,

the dude will be like hauling me outta ma ride, slam me on my bonnet and be all up in my stuff,

then down the copshop and black up my hands

oh p leeees dayem yall gota deathwish?

jsherk wrote:

...In R. v. Ainsworth it makes mention of R. v. Duncan 2012 O.J. No. 6405 which is different from the the one you mention of R. v. Duncan, 2013 ONCJ 160)

But I cannot find R. v. Duncan 2012 O.J. No. 6405 on Canlii ... anybody know what happened to it and where it can be found?

Its actually the same decision. The Duncan citation used in the Ainsworth decision is actually for "Ontario Judgements"---a Quicklaw citation for unreported decisions. Quicklaw is a paid-based case law database used by legal professionals. Canlii only reports decisions that have actually been published by a reporting service.

When a decision is rendered in Ontario, Quicklaw will publish it using the "OJ" citation----for Ontario Judgements. If its worthy of being reported in a more traditional journal like the Ontario Reports (OR) or Canadian Criminal Cases (CCC), it will be. The proper convention for legal citations in Canada is that you first cite from a traditional reporting service and only refer to an unreported decision when absolutely necessary. This is according to the Canadian Guide to Uniform Legal Citation.

So, if you subscribed to Quicklaw, you'd actually see that additional citation. The judge in the Ainsworth decision SHOULD have cited a published report citation in his decision since they were already available at the time of his judgement. However, no one is going to correct him on such a triviality.

As confirmation, if you look at the Duncan decision, you'll see it was actually decided back in 2012.

@highwaystar - Okay thanks for clarifying. That is good information to know.

Some uniforms, actually most do not have a badge attached to it. All usually have a shoulder crest and majority now have vests / shirts with police written on the front and back.

Some do not carry a badge or business card outside their cruiser while in uniform (potential to drop it anywhere) but do keep those items inside their cruiser. I don't know of anyone that wouldn't give a business card if asked.

Guess if there is doubt of the officer being legit, call 911 and confirm if you are stopped by a real officer. Yes, if you are still moving you can use your cellphone to call 911