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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:03 am 
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Thanks to you all for your input,still working on the defence plus other issues relating to the whole E-bike legislation.I realize it's a can of worms however when I'm done it will hopefully be somewhat clearer.I have already been accused by an importer in Stratford of trying to put them out of business.Safety is the overiding concern, my case will permit me to shine a spotlight on the whole matter.For the record the Provincial prosecutor in Welland will review my defence before trial.Thanks again and keep your input coming,my e-mail is abunyan@vaxxine.com I'll keep you posted.


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:08 am 
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In short, this is just stupid. Anytime people debate this they compare it to a bicycle or a moped or a motorcycle. A scooter style e-bike is completely different and unique and therefore shouldn't be compared to anything else. It's designed differently than the standard e-bike that looks like a standard mountain bike.

Without comparing it to ANY other vehicles. Can anyone provide a logical reason why the scooter style e-bike should require pedals on them?

If you can then yes...there should be a law/regulation around them. If not...then let's stop thinking like lawyers and think about what are the steps to change the law/regulation around them.


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Toonie,having 45 years plus of experience with all forms of wheeled vehicles,I'm fully familiar with all the aspects of the E-bike differences.For a more detailed explanation of my role in this debate look for an archive article in the Welland Tribune July 30th 2010. www.wellandtribune.ca My whole intent is to a) clarify the legislation, b) expose the flaws in the current designation, c) see these bikes meet full CSA Standards, d) engineer a pedal system that functions. I have addressed this to multiple law officers, their response is as varied and confused as the public.I was hoping to bring this to pass in a non-adversarial setting,the reason it's going to court is quite simple,quoting the officer who charged me in response to my question Why? "Because you gave me attitude when I pulled you over"


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:05 pm 
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t00nie wrote:
Without comparing it to ANY other vehicles. Can anyone provide a logical reason why the scooter style e-bike should require pedals on them?.


They're supposed be a muscular powered vehicle, hence the exemptions that are granted for them. If you're not using muscle power to propel them, how are they any different then a limited speed motorcycle and why should they be treated differently? Why is it unreasonable to require the driver to be licence and the vehicle to be plated/insured?


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Stanton wrote:
t00nie wrote:
Without comparing it to ANY other vehicles. Can anyone provide a logical reason why the scooter style e-bike should require pedals on them?.


They're supposed be a muscular powered vehicle, hence the exemptions that are granted for them. If you're not using muscle power to propel them, how are they any different then a limited speed motorcycle and why should they be treated differently? Why is it unreasonable to require the driver to be licence and the vehicle to be plated/insured?


exactly!!

seems very clear - even on the MTO site
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... html#power

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:29 am 
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When the Federal Government approved power-assisted bicycles, they were in fact only looking at pedelecs that have to be pedeled before power is applied to the motor. They decided to include throttle full time power assist when they found them safe alternative mode of transportation. The laws were thus formulated around power-assisted bicycles. The definition was broad enough to include scooter style ebikes, but it is the fault of the manufacturers that they did not design the scooter style to conform properly to the laws. Some scooter style ebikes can be pedalled, and without a danger scraping the road. It is the fault of the manufacturers that the pedals do not function correctly. I have seen a Daymak model pedalled, and I think some their models have retractable pedals

If scooter style ebikes get their own clasification, they will more likely end up regulated like motor-assisted bicycles, with plates, insurance and license required, rather than the ebike designation. The majority of people seem to want the scooter style off the trails, licensed and insured, and reclassifying them will be the perfect excuse to impose the additional requirements which will sound the death knell for ebikes. That is what happened to mopeds. Has anyone seen a moped lately? Of course not, the insurance requirement killed them off.


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:10 pm 
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orillia3 wrote:
When the Federal Government approved power-assisted bicycles, they were in fact only looking at pedelecs that have to be pedeled before power is applied to the motor. They decided to include throttle full time power assist when they found them safe alternative mode of transportation. The laws were thus formulated around power-assisted bicycles. The definition was broad enough to include scooter style ebikes, but it is the fault of the manufacturers that they did not design the scooter style to conform properly to the laws. Some scooter style ebikes can be pedalled, and without a danger scraping the road. It is the fault of the manufacturers that the pedals do not function correctly. I have seen a Daymak model pedalled, and I think some their models have retractable pedals

If scooter style ebikes get their own clasification, they will more likely end up regulated like motor-assisted bicycles, with plates, insurance and license required, rather than the ebike designation. The majority of people seem to want the scooter style off the trails, licensed and insured, and reclassifying them will be the perfect excuse to impose the additional requirements which will sound the death knell for ebikes. That is what happened to mopeds. Has anyone seen a moped lately? Of course not, the insurance requirement killed them off.



I haven't seen the Daymak model(s) but I've heard only how Daymak started in Canada which was an interesting story. Either way, if the pedals retract, I wonder if you're allowed to actually ride with them retracted? I've heard that you're not allowed to use "modified pedals". Would these count as modified when they're retracted? What's the laws definition on that...? Another variable to add to the already confusing mix!


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:43 pm 
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sheesh make it simple.......
- if it does not have a motor it is a bicycle and needs nothing other than regular bicycle stuff
- if it has a motor it is a motorcycle
plain and simple, no confusion

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:09 pm 
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Once again we're comparing a scooter style e-bike to a normal bicycle. The two don't primarily operate the same way therefore should not be compared to each other.


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:01 pm 
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t00nie wrote:
Once again we're comparing a scooter style e-bike to a normal bicycle. The two don't primarily operate the same way therefore should not be compared to each other.


No, we (or at least me) are comparing it a limited speed motorcycle. I agree it's definitely not a bicycle, hence why it shouldn't be treated as one. I'm not really hearing any reason why it shouldn't need to be plated/insured, other then some people would find the cost prohibitive.


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Stanton wrote:
t00nie wrote:
Once again we're comparing a scooter style e-bike to a normal bicycle. The two don't primarily operate the same way therefore should not be compared to each other.


No, we (or at least me) are comparing it a limited speed motorcycle. I agree it's definitely not a bicycle, hence why it shouldn't be treated as one. I'm not really hearing any reason why it shouldn't need to be plated/insured, other then some people would find the cost prohibitive.


Agree.....

My post above was just for the gov't to make changes in legislation to make it simple ...either it is a bicycle(human power) or it is a motorcycle (mechanical power)

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:09 am 
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I agree, e-bikes should be registered and you should have to put a plate on them. The main reason for this is because we need the ability to track/monitor those who do not have licenses but can still ride an e-bike. Also, it gives an opportunity for everyone to report a e-bike rider who doesn't obey laws such as riding on sidewalks and through red lights. These things give us a bad name, we get compared to the punks who ride up on sidewalks to go through red lights then back onto the street.

As for insurance, I don't see forcing e-bikes to be insured to be logical if standard bicycles don't have to be insured. My reason for this is that the risk for injury while riding either vehicles is the same. In fact, I feel safer riding my scooter style e-bike on the roads than I do on my bicycle, I find that other vehicles give me much more space than when I ride my mountain bike.


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:20 am 
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I have looked at the Highway Traffic Act and the original poster could have been charged with three different sections of the HTA. The statement that removing the pedals reclassifies the ebike into an motor vehicle are false and I will explain why.

First of all, the ebiker without pedals should have been charged with HTA section 103.1 (1)
Quote:
103.1 (1) Every power-assisted bicycle shall have the prescribed equipment and conform to the prescribed requirements and standards. 2009, c. 5, s. 35.


I cannot find the set fines for this section of the HTA and am not sure what 2009, c. 5, s. 35 means. .

Alternatively the ebiker without pedals should have been charged with ONTARIO REGULATION 369/09 made under the HIGHWAY TRAFFIC ACT if they thought the ebike was modified.
Quote:
No modifications
6. A power-assisted bicycle must not be ridden on, driven or operated if it has been modified after its manufacture in any way that may result in increasing its power or its maximum speed beyond the limits set out in clause (d) of the definition of “power-assisted bicycle” in section 2 of the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations made under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada).


or if they thought the ebike was unsafe, should have been charged under the same HTA regulation, the next section

Quote:
Good working order
7. A power-assisted bicycle must not be ridden on, driven or operated unless it is in good working order.


Under schedule 52.2 the sets fines for section 6:
Power-assisted bicycle – speed or power modified is $85

and under schedule 52.2 the set fine for section 7:
Power-assisted bicycle not in good working order is $85

According to this Regulation 369/09 section 6 you can have the ebike modified to completely not conform with the definition of an ebike under the HTA, modifying it beyond legal power and/or speed and the maximum sanction is a fine of $85. In contrast to removing the pedals, these modifications are far more serious, yet do not reclassify the ebike into a motor vehicle, so saying any modification of an ebike reclassifies it is false. The intent of the legislation is clear.

An ebike without pedals is dealt with under the HTA in the above legislation.

The Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act was never written to be used to punish for ebikes with no pedals.


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:45 am 
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Good morning folks,reading all your comments has been extremely helpful,several have already confirmed what we already knew,it would appear that a large degree of confusion exists across the spectrum on the correct and appropriate legislation pertaining to the charges in my case.Former NRP officer Mick Riddle will be advocating this case should it proceed to trial,it was hoped the issue could be addressed in a non-confrontational manner,that thought still persists.Obviously at this stage I am limited in what may now be discussed.Thanks again for all of your input,there will be more to come on the subject.


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Re: E-Bikes and the HTA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Sad that someone is to be used as test case, example, but these forms of transport are just a year out of their trial period on Ontario roads.

I am no leagel expert, but I did read up on these bikes, learned the rules, and follow them to the letter of the law!!!!

I hate to say but the Head Gear Charge will stick, once the peddels are off the bike ( even if under the seat), and you are on a raod that carries traffic, you now require a DOT rated Mellon Cover.

I have seen so many who ride e-bikes now, no peddles attached....I would guess not knowing they can be pulled off the road with a bunch of trouble to boot.

I have a 500 watt Motorino XPh , one of the more weighty models, and I can indeed power the bike via the peddles.

I was pulled over one night, so the Officer could check if my Peddles did indeed work. I did peddle, but in truth I could have jogged next to it pushing much faster.

I do not mean to poo poo any person on a right to have their day in Court, but on this I think the Law will win out, and some big fines will come down. So that The MTO, Police will have a clear direction.

Please note, no Peddles attached make you now a LSM which is already classed by the MTO and it's set of rules.

An LSM is a Limited Speed Motorcycle (Moped) which reqires a restricted class M licence for limited-speed motorcycle (LSM)


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