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Red light - Fail to stop
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:31 pm 
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I desperatley need help with my ticket. My court date is set for April 4, 2011!

Here's my story:

Back in October, I was driving northbound on Churchill Medows Blvd in Mississauga. As I came to the intersection of Thomas Street, the light was green. By the time I was at the intersection, the light turned amber. I went thorugh the intersection. Next thing I know, there's a cop stopping me. He gave me a Red light - Fail to Stop ticket. I decided to fight the ticket, given the fact that I already am having a hard time affording my insurance on a clean record and secondly, I didn;t go through a red light; it was amber.

I requested discolosure. In the officer's notes, he says that he was stopped in the right turn lane on Thomas street Westbound. He said that he obsevered the light change from green to amber to red for the north/southbound traffic. He also stated that the left turn lane traffic stopped for the red light. After that, he obsevered my vehicle go through the intersection.

I went back to the intersection many times after that. I live in the same area. The thing that is bugging me is, if the officer was stopped westbound on Thomas, how could he see the traffic lights for the northbound/southbound lights? I took pictures at 2-cars length away from the intersection (where the officer would have been) and I can't see the lights. I even took pictures at 1-car length from the intersection and still cannot see the lights. I know for a fact he was not at the intersection because there was a red minivan stopped to take a right-turn onto Churhill Medows from Thomas (which would have been right in front of where the officer was standing). Also, there is no right turn lane on Thomas, but the officer states he was stopped there in the right turn lane. There is a left turn lane and only 1 other lane for the rest of the traffic.

My question is: Is this enough evidence to create doubt in the officer's side of the story. Can I use the pictures of the intersection in court to help with my case? Is there something here that I'm missing? Do I even have a chance of winning? Should I plea bargin with the prosecuter instead?

Thanks in advance! any help is apprciated!


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Arguments for Red light- fail to stop
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Hi guys:

I really need some advice/help.

Some background info: I was driving northbound on Churchill Medows and through disclosure, the cop said he was on the intersection of Thomas/Churchill medows facing westbound.

For my red light ticket, if I were to take a picture of the intersection and state that the cop, who was standing facing westbound, did not have a clear view of the opposing traffic lights, enough of a view to see whether it really was in fact red when I passed through, would that hold up in court? Is that enough to poke a hole in his story? Or should I just give up on this argument?

any other suggestions on how I can fight my red light ticket would really be appreciated! I think I'm going insane from all this stress. My court date is about 2 weeks away....


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Re: Red light - Fail to stop
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
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Location: Ontario
Your may be able to raise some doubt, but short of going to trial it's impossible to say if it will be enough. It will all be dependent on the strength of the officer's testimony as well as yours if you choose to testify. For what it's worth, when I look at the intersection with Google Street view, I can clearly see the color of the lights for NB/SB almost as far back as Lila Trail. I'm not sure I'd agree with you that the officer wouldn't be able to see the lights from 2 car lengths back.

If you plan on trying to introduce photos as evidence, be sure to read over the instructions on this site since there are certain guidelines to follow.


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Re: Red light - Fail to stop
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:26 pm 
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Thanks Stanton. I appreciate your help. I guess I will re-look at this argument.


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Question: Disclosure
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:58 am 
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Hi there:

I have a question about disclosure. I recieved my disclosure a while back. My court date is on April 4th, 2011. However, as I'm trying to put my case togther, I'm wondering if I even got the full disclosure I requested. I only got the officer's handwritten notes for my red light ticket. In my disclosure request, I asked for "a typed version of any hand written notes," along with a whole list of other things, but I obviously didn't receieve those. On top of that, the officer's notes are in shortform and some of the words are hard to read.

My trial is 2 weeks away. Do I still have enough time to request full disclosure and if I don't recieve it, can I state incomplete disclosure and request adjournment at my trial?


Thanks in advance for your replies.


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Re: Red light - Fail to stop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Location: Toronto
The only thing you can request is an explanation of the officer's short form, and the notes to be typed if they are obviously not legible. The only other type of evidence that you would really get is photographic or video, if it exists, and you asked for it.

What else did you ask for? Other than what I just listed above, nothing else that I can think of is really relevant or required for you to prepare a defence, so a JP wouldn't rule that disclosure was incomplete.

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Re: Red light - Fail to stop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Here is the list that I included in my disclosure request form:

o a full copy of the police officer’s notes;
o a copy of both sides of the officer’s copy of the ticket (Notice of Offence);
o a typed version of any hand written notes;
o witness will say statements;
o witness statements;
o any statements made by the defendant;
o copies of the original notes of such statements; and
o the names and address, occupation and criminal record of the persons providing such information.

If I don't get the typed version of the officer's notes in time for my trial, will the JP allow a stay based on incomplete disclosure? Again, my trial is April 4, 2011. I did request a typed version today.


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Re: Red light - Fail to stop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:41 pm 
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The list you provided has a number of items that are redundant or just not applicable to your ticket. This is the problem when people use boiler plate disclosure requests from the internet. (I'm not blaming you if you didn't know any better, I'm just explaining.)

o a full copy of the police officer’s notes - you got that
o a copy of both sides of the officer’s copy of the ticket (Notice of Offence) - you have a copy of the face of the ticket (the yellow one you were issued) and you don't get a copy of the back unless it has something on it
o a typed version of any hand written notes; - you don't get that automatically, that's something you might be able to get if you already got handwritten notes that are illegible
o witness will say statements - of who? the officer is the witness and you got his notes. officers don't do will say statements for provincial offences.
o witness statements - of who? you got the officer's notes
o any statements made by the defendant - did you make any? if so, they're no doubt recorded in the officer's notes. copies of your statement is something you'd request if you were arrested and interviewed by the police.
o copies of the original notes of such statements - again, there is no such statements
o the names and address, occupation and criminal record of the persons providing such information - i'm not sure what "such information" refers to, but the bottom line is that the officer is the only witness here (I assume) and you got all the info you're going to get about him (i.e. name, badge #)

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Plea bargin?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:22 am 
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I was wondering if someone can help me with information about how to deal with plea bargins? I have no expereince with traffic court at all. I know that you can arrange to meet with the Crown before the trial to try to reach a deal, but what if the deal isn't good enough? Can you say, "I'll think about it."??

And: Is it better to meet before the trial (i.e. the morning of) or right before the trial in the courtroom and try to see if the Crown offers a deal? Again, if they offer a deal right before the trial in the courtroom, can you say, "I'll think about it." And then, if the cop shows up, how do you let the Crown know that you are in fact interested to take the bargin? What if the court is in session by that point?

I hope my post makes sense. I am a little confused by the whole process. Thanks in advance for your time.


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Re: Red light - Fail to stop
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:32 pm 
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Usually people meet with the crown in the morning to sort things out. Reason being that pleas go first and then trials. They're not going to like it if you wait until all the pleas are done and then go up to them right before your trial starts and want to talk plea bargain. It depends on the prosecutor, but deals are often take it or leave it. You can ask if you can think about it if you need/want to and they may or may not give you time. If you legitimately need time to consider the offer, they're likely to give it to you, but if they get the sense that you're asking for time to stall and try to beat the system somehow, they're not likely to be as generous.

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NOTHING I SAY ON HERE IS LEGAL ADVICE.


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