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2 questions based on disclosure info (Disobey stop sign)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:06 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 4
Hi Everyone,

My charge is “Disobey stop sign”. I have two questions:

1. What is the definition of “unobstructed view”?
2. Can I get a copy of the video camera evidence through the disclosure process?


I made a general request and specific request for disclosure (to Old City Hall, Toronto). The general request was for “all relevant information and documentation so that I may prepare my defence”. The specific request was for:

1. A full copy of the officer’s notes
2. A copy of both sides of the officer’s copy of the ticket
3. A typed version of any handwritten notes
4. An explanation and clarification of the charge

I asked for the information to be provided by July 12th. Since I did not get it I called them July 16th. I was told they do not mail out disclosure information. You need to go to the Prosecutor’s office to pick it up, and sign for it. She wanted to know what I requested, and said it was available for me to pick up. The only information I was given when I went to Old City Hall was a copy of the back of the ticket with the officer’s notes. The person was kind enough to read the notes with me so I would know what all the shorthand codes meant.

I was also told that they would not type up any handwritten notes. If I really wanted that I would need to go through some other process to get typed notes.

And to get “an explanation and clarification of the charge” I would need to refer to the H.T.A. Or the Annotated HTA which should be available at a library (she did not know if the annotated version was available on-line).

The officer’s notes state that the purpose was for enforcing the stop sign, and he had a “clear/unobstructed view of the stop sign T intersection”. What is the definition of “unobstructed view”? And just because you have an unobstrcuted view of the STOP SIGN, does not mean you have an unobstructed view one foot before or after the stop sign, which is where a vehicle could stop. p.s. There were no white lines at the intersection.

In my case there is a tree trunk in the line of sight from where the officer was watching. A week later I parked my car where the officer was parked and took pictures of the intersection as cars were going through. The tree trunk obstructs the view. Depending on where a car stops for the stop sign, the tree trunk can completely block the width of the front wheel well of the car. Is that still considered to be an “unobstructed view”? I don’t think so, but I don’t know what the definition is as per the Highway Traffic Act.


In my disclosure request I also requested that I be advised of any information which is not being disclosed and an explanation for such non-disclosure. I was not advised of anything.

Upon reviewing the copy of the back of the ticket and the notes after I left Old City Hall I noticed at the top it says “All caught on ICC”. The person who was reviewing the written notes with me never mentioned this part. I guess the ICC is a video camera. Isn’t that evidence, and shouldn’t I have been given this since I originally asked for “all relevant information”? Can I get a copy of this video camera evidence as part of disclosure before the trial? Shouldn’t they have provided that to me? Do I need to make another disclosure request specifically asking for a copy of the video camera evidence? Can you get video camera evidence when going through the disclosure process?

If the ICC evidence is played in court, shouldn’t I have had a chance to see it (and get a copy of it) before the trial?

Any help is appreciated.

p.s. I got my ticket in March 2013, and my court date is August 2013 at Toronto Old City Hall. So it is not taking a year or more to go to trial these days.


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Re: 2 questions based on disclosure info (Disobey stop sign)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
1) Unobstructed view is not an HTA term.
2) If there is video evidence, it should be disclosed.


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Re: 2 questions based on disclosure info (Disobey stop sign)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 4
Another question...

Did the officer need to tell me that there was video evidence? The officer never informed me that there was video evidence. And if I was being recorded after I was stopped, I was never informed of that either. Does the officer need to tell me that I am being recorded?

The reason I am asking is that a friend said that I should have been informed of this. I am not sure if that is correct.


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Re: 2 questions based on disclosure info (Disobey stop sign)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:33 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:44 am
Posts: 1063
tor_resident wrote:
Did the officer need to tell me that there was video evidence?


No, but it IF it exists it will be provided upon request.

tor_resident wrote:
The officer never informed me that there was video evidence. And if I was being recorded after I was stopped, I was never informed of that either. Does the officer need to tell me that I am being recorded?

The reason I am asking is that a friend said that I should have been informed of this. I am not sure if that is correct.


You are in a open public setting and have no reasonable expectation of privacy, whether it's an officer with a dashcam or a random stranger with a camera. The answer is no, you don't have to be informed or nor give some kind of consent.


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Re: 2 questions based on disclosure info (Disobey stop sign)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 4
Hi Everyone,

Questions related to pictures...

I took some pictures of the view the officer would see of the intersection. I parked my car where he was parked and took several pictures from inside the car. The pictures do not show the names of the streets because you cannot get them from that angle. I have pictures showing how the tree trunk can block the wheel well of a vehicle making it impossible to tell if the vehicle came to a complete stop because you cannot see the wheel touching the road for that brief instance.

What am I supposed to do to get pictures with the street name that show a tree trunk is obstructing the officers view? The prosecutor could argue that the pictures I have could be of any intersection. It would be hard/impossible to get a picture showing both street names with the tree trunk that obstructs the view because of the angle.


What do I need to do to get my pictures accepted when I go to court? I read somewhere (can't recall where), that I would need to bring my camera to court; have my pictures professionally printed and have the receipt; and have printed 2 or 3 copies. Is that true? Is there anything else I would need to do?

What are other's experiences when trying to get your pictures accepted by the court?

Is it really worth the effort if my pictures can be easily dismissed by the prosecutor?


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Re: 2 questions based on disclosure info (Disobey stop sign)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 4
I had my court date and was prepared for many angles. However the officer did not show up and the charge was withdrawn so I did not get to test my approach. Glad it is over.

The Justice of the Peace actually seemed like a nice guy and seemed to enjoy his job. Although I was nervous at first I felt very calm after the first 10 minutes of court session. I have seen and heard of some miserable JPs; glad I did not have to deal with one of those.

p.s. My trial was at Toronto Old City Hall. I was surprised at the number of interpreters that were needed. There was Spanish, Russian, Mandarin, Serbian, Urdu, Farsi, Somali, and at least 4 other languages I had never heard of. What was also surprising was that all the cases that needed a translator got dealt with first, and then the English speaking people got dealt after all the other cases that needed a translator were done. Since I am originally from Jamaica maybe I should ask for a patois translator :)


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