Hi, Officer pulled me over and gave me three tickets at the same scene - fail to stop at red light, missing driver's license and permit. Am I allowed to go with Option 3 for the red light one while I pick Option 2 for the rest two document related tickets? Or, should it be only one option, either early resolution meeting or trial? I read many articles that the prosecutors usually drop document related tickets at the early resolution meeting. If I bring all three at the court, I'm afraid I'd lose my chance to defend and eventually win the first ticket, red light stop. I'd really appreciate your advise and/or experience of going with different options. Thank you!!
Hi,
Officer pulled me over and gave me three tickets at the same scene - fail to stop at red light, missing driver's license and permit. Am I allowed to go with Option 3 for the red light one while I pick Option 2 for the rest two document related tickets? Or, should it be only one option, either early resolution meeting or trial?
I read many articles that the prosecutors usually drop document related tickets at the early resolution meeting. If I bring all three at the court, I'm afraid I'd lose my chance to defend and eventually win the first ticket, red light stop. I'd really appreciate your advise and/or experience of going with different options. Thank you!!
You'll have to deal with them as a group, whichever option you choose. Likely the deal offered will be plea to the red light and the other two will be dropped. Or you take your chance at a trial for all three. The two document offences are very easy to prove at a trial though.
You'll have to deal with them as a group, whichever option you choose. Likely the deal offered will be plea to the red light and the other two will be dropped. Or you take your chance at a trial for all three. The two document offences are very easy to prove at a trial though.
Thank you, Decatur Does that mean people are not allowed to pick different options for the tickets they get simultaneously? Or, you said so because I would get a higher chance to get the two documents related tickets dropped if I go with the same options altogether? The strategy I came up with is - Go with option 2 for the doc related tickets, show the license and permit to a prosecutor at an early resolution meeting and hopefully get them just dropped - Go with option 3 for the fail to stop at red and defend myself at a trial I strongly disagree that it was a red light and I failed to stop. It was 70km/h zone and the light turned to amber right before I entered in to the intersection, i.e. couldn't stop safely but drove through. The officer was in the opposite lane, not right at the intersection but there're two cars before hers. It was on top of the hill where the traffic light is, so I highly doubt she was in an accurate position where she can determine the position of a car compared to the stop line. She u-turned to catch me but another interesting point is that there was enough distance/space for her to pull me over before the next traffic light but she just followed me all the way to the next traffic light and then turned on her siren to pull me over. Once my trial date is set, I'm going to ask for a disclosure and check what she wrote about the situation. I still wonder whether it's better to pick two different options. What a sigh...
Decatur wrote:
You'll have to deal with them as a group, whichever option you choose. Likely the deal offered will be plea to the red light and the other two will be dropped. Or you take your chance at a trial for all three. The two document offences are very easy to prove at a trial though.
Thank you, Decatur
Does that mean people are not allowed to pick different options for the tickets they get simultaneously? Or, you said so because I would get a higher chance to get the two documents related tickets dropped if I go with the same options altogether?
The strategy I came up with is
- Go with option 2 for the doc related tickets, show the license and permit to a prosecutor at an early resolution meeting and hopefully get them just dropped
- Go with option 3 for the fail to stop at red and defend myself at a trial
I strongly disagree that it was a red light and I failed to stop. It was 70km/h zone and the light turned to amber right before I entered in to the intersection, i.e. couldn't stop safely but drove through. The officer was in the opposite lane, not right at the intersection but there're two cars before hers. It was on top of the hill where the traffic light is, so I highly doubt she was in an accurate position where she can determine the position of a car compared to the stop line. She u-turned to catch me but another interesting point is that there was enough distance/space for her to pull me over before the next traffic light but she just followed me all the way to the next traffic light and then turned on her siren to pull me over.
Once my trial date is set, I'm going to ask for a disclosure and check what she wrote about the situation.
I still wonder whether it's better to pick two different options. What a sigh...
There is no incentive for the Crown to withdraw the first two charges if you plan on going to trial on the third, hence they all get dealt with together. You'll either work out a plea deal on all three or go to trial on all three. Unfortunately unlike the red light ticket, there's not much to fight the ownership/licence tickets on. Even though you might disagree with the red light ticket, it might be in your best interest to work out a plea deal on all three charges. Remember that ANY conviction counts against you with insurance, so you don't want to risk having two convictions on your record (no licence/ownership) to take a gamble on the third (red light). If you're offered any deal where they agree to drop two of the tickets in exchange for a guilty plea on the third, it might be wise to take it. If it was the red light ticket on it's own then I'd say take your chances at trial.
There is no incentive for the Crown to withdraw the first two charges if you plan on going to trial on the third, hence they all get dealt with together. You'll either work out a plea deal on all three or go to trial on all three. Unfortunately unlike the red light ticket, there's not much to fight the ownership/licence tickets on. Even though you might disagree with the red light ticket, it might be in your best interest to work out a plea deal on all three charges. Remember that ANY conviction counts against you with insurance, so you don't want to risk having two convictions on your record (no licence/ownership) to take a gamble on the third (red light). If you're offered any deal where they agree to drop two of the tickets in exchange for a guilty plea on the third, it might be wise to take it. If it was the red light ticket on it's own then I'd say take your chances at trial.
Thank you, Stanton Yes, that's why I'd like to take Option 2 for the first two doc-related tickets and hope them dropped at a meeting with a prosecutor. Then, I'd only have the red light ticket at a trial. Big assumption with this strategy is that a prosecutor doesn't know I got three tickets altogether but all the info s/he can access is the doc related tickets. If this assumption is wrong, then I definitely need to change my strategy. What I can think of is to have an early resolution meeting and check if what kind of deal offered and then go on a trial. Or, just go with a trial option. I was driving my Leaf and on my way to a charging station to charge the battery. The documents were in my wallet and I left my wallet in my husband's car because after plugging my Leaf, I needed a ride back home. My husband was ahead of me and he arrived the charging station without knowing me having gotten pulled over by a police. Waited a bit, came back and he found what's happening. Documents were presented but the police said it's too late. Of course they can argue that I have to keep the documents with me while driving. Do you folks think there's any chance all tickets get quashed given the situation? Would ex-cop type service be a best approach? I never used one in my life. I know it's quite a long journey but am pretty concerned already :?
Stanton wrote:
There is no incentive for the Crown to withdraw the first two charges if you plan on going to trial on the third, hence they all get dealt with together. You'll either work out a plea deal on all three or go to trial on all three. Unfortunately unlike the red light ticket, there's not much to fight the ownership/licence tickets on. Even though you might disagree with the red light ticket, it might be in your best interest to work out a plea deal on all three charges. Remember that ANY conviction counts against you with insurance, so you don't want to risk having two convictions on your record (no licence/ownership) to take a gamble on the third (red light). If you're offered any deal where they agree to drop two of the tickets in exchange for a guilty plea on the third, it might be wise to take it. If it was the red light ticket on it's own then I'd say take your chances at trial.
Thank you, Stanton
Yes, that's why I'd like to take Option 2 for the first two doc-related tickets and hope them dropped at a meeting with a prosecutor. Then, I'd only have the red light ticket at a trial. Big assumption with this strategy is that a prosecutor doesn't know I got three tickets altogether but all the info s/he can access is the doc related tickets. If this assumption is wrong, then I definitely need to change my strategy. What I can think of is to have an early resolution meeting and check if what kind of deal offered and then go on a trial. Or, just go with a trial option.
I was driving my Leaf and on my way to a charging station to charge the battery. The documents were in my wallet and I left my wallet in my husband's car because after plugging my Leaf, I needed a ride back home. My husband was ahead of me and he arrived the charging station without knowing me having gotten pulled over by a police. Waited a bit, came back and he found what's happening. Documents were presented but the police said it's too late. Of course they can argue that I have to keep the documents with me while driving. Do you folks think there's any chance all tickets get quashed given the situation? Would ex-cop type service be a best approach? I never used one in my life. I know it's quite a long journey but am pretty concerned already
The whole idea of them dropping maybe one of the the lesser charges is so there's no trial. If you're going to go to trial anyways, what's the point? They might as well just get a conviction on all three as there's going to be a trial anyways. They are going to use the the charges against each other to see if you'll accept a reduced conviction. The section that you were charged under will mention how these things need to be surrendered upon request. The officer is under no obligation to wait while you search for it, whether it's hidden somewhere in the car or someone is on their way to deliver it.
ilike wrote:
Yes, that's why I'd like to take Option 2 for the first two doc-related tickets and hope them dropped at a meeting with a prosecutor. Then, I'd only have the red light ticket at a trial.
The whole idea of them dropping maybe one of the the lesser charges is so there's no trial. If you're going to go to trial anyways, what's the point? They might as well just get a conviction on all three as there's going to be a trial anyways. They are going to use the the charges against each other to see if you'll accept a reduced conviction.
ilike wrote:
I was driving my Leaf and on my way to a charging station to charge the battery. The documents were in my wallet and I left my wallet in my husband's car because after plugging my Leaf, I needed a ride back home. My husband was ahead of me and he arrived the charging station without knowing me having gotten pulled over by a police. Waited a bit, came back and he found what's happening. Documents were presented but the police said it's too late. Of course they can argue that I have to keep the documents with me while driving.
The section that you were charged under will mention how these things need to be surrendered upon request. The officer is under no obligation to wait while you search for it, whether it's hidden somewhere in the car or someone is on their way to deliver it.
The whole idea of them dropping maybe one of the the lesser charges is so there's no trial. If you're going to go to trial anyways, what's the point? They might as well just get a conviction on all three as there's going to be a trial anyways. They are going to use the the charges against each other to see if you'll accept a reduced conviction. Thanks, bend. So, does that mean a prosecutor would be well aware of the fact that I got three tickets even if I applied Option 2 for the doc-related tickets only?
bend wrote:
ilike wrote:
Yes, that's why I'd like to take Option 2 for the first two doc-related tickets and hope them dropped at a meeting with a prosecutor. Then, I'd only have the red light ticket at a trial.
The whole idea of them dropping maybe one of the the lesser charges is so there's no trial. If you're going to go to trial anyways, what's the point? They might as well just get a conviction on all three as there's going to be a trial anyways. They are going to use the the charges against each other to see if you'll accept a reduced conviction.
Thanks, bend. So, does that mean a prosecutor would be well aware of the fact that I got three tickets even if I applied Option 2 for the doc-related tickets only?
Prosecutors know all the charges you are facing and have your entire driver's abstract. That's how they file things---all charges from one set of facts for a defendant are placed in the same envelope/folder. It keeps everything tidy and all correspondence and filings are kept together. Its also easier to schedule officers for court. So, you have virtually no likelihood of passing one over on them by thinking you'll be able to 'partially' deal. As all others have already told you, they will deal with your charges in the aggregate. So, if you are going to trial on the red light offence, they won't give you any deal on the others. All charges will simply proceed to trial, unless you opt to pay one or more beforehand. There is absolutely no incentive to give you any deal if you'll be wasting court time anyway---they might as well proceed on all charges. Your strategy is guaranteed to backfire---all offences result from the same incident so they absolutely will know about them all. As I've said, they are all stored in one trial envelope/file. But even if that were not the case, the officer's notes will also reference all the charges so they'd know that way anyway. Bottom line: either deal with them all or get ready to go to trial on all.
Prosecutors know all the charges you are facing and have your entire driver's abstract. That's how they file things---all charges from one set of facts for a defendant are placed in the same envelope/folder. It keeps everything tidy and all correspondence and filings are kept together. Its also easier to schedule officers for court. So, you have virtually no likelihood of passing one over on them by thinking you'll be able to 'partially' deal.
As all others have already told you, they will deal with your charges in the aggregate. So, if you are going to trial on the red light offence, they won't give you any deal on the others. All charges will simply proceed to trial, unless you opt to pay one or more beforehand. There is absolutely no incentive to give you any deal if you'll be wasting court time anyway---they might as well proceed on all charges. Your strategy is guaranteed to backfire---all offences result from the same incident so they absolutely will know about them all. As I've said, they are all stored in one trial envelope/file. But even if that were not the case, the officer's notes will also reference all the charges so they'd know that way anyway. Bottom line: either deal with them all or get ready to go to trial on all.
Thank you, highwaystar Does anyone know whether all tickets would be quashed at a trial IF a police doesn't show up? Or, is that decision solely up to a judge, i.e. what to drop what to be still charged even in the absence of the police?
highwaystar wrote:
Prosecutors know all the charges you are facing and have your entire driver's abstract. That's how they file things---all charges from one set of facts for a defendant are placed in the same envelope/folder. It keeps everything tidy and all correspondence and filings are kept together. Its also easier to schedule officers for court. So, you have virtually no likelihood of passing one over on them by thinking you'll be able to 'partially' deal.
As all others have already told you, they will deal with your charges in the aggregate. So, if you are going to trial on the red light offence, they won't give you any deal on the others. All charges will simply proceed to trial, unless you opt to pay one or more beforehand. There is absolutely no incentive to give you any deal if you'll be wasting court time anyway---they might as well proceed on all charges. Your strategy is guaranteed to backfire---all offences result from the same incident so they absolutely will know about them all. As I've said, they are all stored in one trial envelope/file. But even if that were not the case, the officer's notes will also reference all the charges so they'd know that way anyway. Bottom line: either deal with them all or get ready to go to trial on all.
Thank you, highwaystar
Does anyone know whether all tickets would be quashed at a trial IF a police doesn't show up? Or, is that decision solely up to a judge, i.e. what to drop what to be still charged even in the absence of the police?
In the absence of the officer the prosecutor will often simply withdraw the charges, since his main witness isn't there to testify. However, in some cases they will try to get an adjournment and reschedule for another date.
In the absence of the officer the prosecutor will often simply withdraw the charges, since his main witness isn't there to testify. However, in some cases they will try to get an adjournment and reschedule for another date.
Thanks, daggx From all the advice so far, I think I'll go with Option 2 for the documents tickets, see what prosecutor would say/offer. If the offer sounds reasonable, then I pay whatever lesser fine and go to a trial for the red light ticket. Worst case, I'll just bring all three to a trial. Can I still go to a trial if early resolution meeting outcome is unsatisfactory, can't I? On the back of the ticket, it says "Option 2 - ... by choosing this option you do not forego the right to a trial".
daggx wrote:
In the absence of the officer the prosecutor will often simply withdraw the charges, since his main witness isn't there to testify. However, in some cases they will try to get an adjournment and reschedule for another date.
Thanks, daggx
From all the advice so far, I think I'll go with Option 2 for the documents tickets, see what prosecutor would say/offer. If the offer sounds reasonable, then I pay whatever lesser fine and go to a trial for the red light ticket. Worst case, I'll just bring all three to a trial.
Can I still go to a trial if early resolution meeting outcome is unsatisfactory, can't I? On the back of the ticket, it says "Option 2 - ... by choosing this option you do not forego the right to a trial".
It appears as if you're not understanding. You don't just go to the meeting with the document tickets and the red light set for trial. If you do the prosecutor will not offer you anything and go to trial on all 3 of which you will undoubtedly be found guilty of at least two. You need to have a meeting on all three tickets and hope the prosecutor offers to drop the 2 document offences if you pay the red light one. The other option is just to go to trial on all three with the same outcome as above.
It appears as if you're not understanding. You don't just go to the meeting with the document tickets and the red light set for trial. If you do the prosecutor will not offer you anything and go to trial on all 3 of which you will undoubtedly be found guilty of at least two.
You need to have a meeting on all three tickets and hope the prosecutor offers to drop the 2 document offences if you pay the red light one.
The other option is just to go to trial on all three with the same outcome as above.
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !
If you want to resolve this with the prosecutor, you can ask to have the red light charge dropped down to: HTA 144 (10) : Obeying lane lights (10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10) http://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK221 It carries a set fine of $85.00 and no demerit points. http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do- ... hedule-43/ The prosecutor will very likely drop the document related charges at this time.
If you want to resolve this with the prosecutor, you can ask to have the red light charge dropped down to:
HTA 144 (10) : Obeying lane lights
(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10)
This is good advice. In some cases, the Prosecutor will insist on getting a guilty plea on the red light offence in exchange for dropping the other two, however in my experience most of them will do as suggested here.
ancientlyre wrote:
If you want to resolve this with the prosecutor, you can ask to have the red light charge dropped down to:
HTA 144 (10) : Obeying lane lights
(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10)
The prosecutor will very likely drop the document related charges at this time.
This is good advice. In some cases, the Prosecutor will insist on getting a guilty plea on the red light offence in exchange for dropping the other two, however in my experience most of them will do as suggested here.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Thank you, ancientlyre I guess this would be a best scenario other than all three getting dropped. Do you know whether I'm allowed to ask for such a drop at an early resolution meeting? I mean, people are allowed to be proactive and suggest possible resolution? Or, is it prosecutor's discretion solely?
ancientlyre wrote:
If you want to resolve this with the prosecutor, you can ask to have the red light charge dropped down to:
HTA 144 (10) : Obeying lane lights
(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10)
The prosecutor will very likely drop the document related charges at this time.
Thank you, ancientlyre
I guess this would be a best scenario other than all three getting dropped. Do you know whether I'm allowed to ask for such a drop at an early resolution meeting? I mean, people are allowed to be proactive and suggest possible resolution? Or, is it prosecutor's discretion solely?
I followed the procedures mentioned in the previous threads regarding the disclosure and received it today. My court date is November 5 2009 in Whitby. After going through the notes I realized 2 things:
1- the notes are horribly illegible and difficult to read
2- I have notes from two different officers.
Now I am not sure if this means that both the officers will be at court for the hearing or…
I hope I can paint the picture with the accuracy that the truth deserves. I have no intention of just beating a ticket.. but more like beating a really unfair ticket. You decide!
I had entered Canada after a short trip downsouth through Detroit on my way to Toronto. Not being equipped with a GPS unit I had to rely on the printable poorman's version from Mapquest. I followed Huron Church Rd.,…
Need an expert advice here. 10 days ago I got a speeding ticket. Ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone. What is the best way to proceed?
1. Should I completely ignore this ticket and let the JP to quash it?
2. Should I go with option 3 - request a trial and force the fatal error by not showing up at court?
My name is Brian. I am in my late 20s and live in Toronto. I do not own a car but half a dozen times a year I rent one with my Visa. (To get out of the city and go to a beach or ski for example.)
I have never drunk and drive but I face a problem and Im wondering if anyone can tell me what to do. Several months ago I was at a weekend party and had quit a bit to consume. When I stopped…
I was travelling east bound on ellesmere road and approached markham road attempting to make a right turn. All signal lights were red and cars traveling down markham road south were given the green arrow. I slowed down and attempted to make the right turn. I got ticketed by a cop who was parked in a gas station facing the intersection in a (no parking zone). I…
Crested a hill, officer coming at me, pulled a u turn and pulled me over.
I will go back and look again but I thought I was in an 80 not a 70 and I am positive I wasn't doing more than 120. My speedo read 110-115. I have aftermarket tires and rims so I assume this would be the difference.
It was around 7pm, already dark, nobody on the road but myself,…
I am looking for the case law that is commonly used when the prosecution says they only need to disclose the testing pages of a radar manual or laser manual.
I am only interested in the binding decisions (appeals court or higher?), and not in the non-binding Justice of the Peace decisions.
I was pulled over two nights ago and charged with failing to stop a stop sign. On the ticket, it says 'disobey stop sign - foil to stop' and does not say 'fail' -- something I think may be a fatal flaw? I have been driving for 12 years with no tickets, yet I live in Brampton where insurance prices are high so I do not want to be convicted as my insurance rates will spike significantly and…
A friend of mine (who is from China and with no knowledge of English at all) asked me to interpret for him on court.
He got pulled over by a stealth patrol car last october, got 3 tickets (fail to show insurance card, using cell phones and fail to stop on right for emergency vehicle) , court date is next week. He told me his insurance expired for less than a month and other charges are false…
I understand the severity of my offences, and I can't stress how much I regret it. I know I endangered the lives of myself and more importantly others. I usually do not speed and I know running late for work is an unacceptable excuse. I will be a man and accept the consequences of my actions although I would appreciate any advice for my situation.
Guys back in january i got a speeding ticket on dvp, but i am 90% sure he did not caught me on radar, i asked for disclosure request and i just received today, I have asked for: a full copy of the police officers notes, a copy of both sides of the officers copy of the ticket, witness will say statements, speed gun manual, calibration record, repair history and officer's training certificate but…
I need some help here. So today I was on my way to get my tires changed from my winter tires to my regular summer staggered set of tires. I was driving in mississauga on my way to my destination, I got pulled over by an officer where I was given a ticket for having improper mudguards. For some context, I drive a stock 2013 C63 AMG with winter tires at the time. I was never…
I'd like to start this off by saying for the last two weeks I have been browsing the forums. I'm trying to prepare myself for an early resolution meeting with a prosecutor (in Brampton, if that matters). I have a clean record and as a teacher, I always do my best to follow rules (trying to practice what I preach!)
On December 4, 2014 I was preparing to turn right at a very busy intersection.…
I have question, today I was going to work in my normal route there is a triangle intersection with my side being the only one with a stop sign.
There's a car in front me who stopped at the stop sign, and the third-side there's a incoming car with their hazard-light flashing but they don't have stop sign, yet coming in at a slow speed.
Right after the car in front me went through the stop sign,…
On my way to work this morning I received a ticket for disobey sign. I was on Hwy 10 Mississauga in the right lane. The right lane leads to the 401 and there is a sign saying Right Lane Exits. I Tried to merge left before the on ramp as did 3 other people. We all got a ticket for doing that. Is there anything I can do? I did not realize I was breaking any law it was a dotted line where I tried to…
This is my first post, before I jump right in I would like to thank the forum, members, posters and moderators for all the information posted. I feel like I have been able to learn a lot from others experiences, so thank you all.
This will be a lengthy post. But if you are dealing with a Disobey Sign HTA 182(2) - No Straight Through Intersection you may find this extremely…
Let me start this with saying that this isn't in regards to a ticket, more a discussion surrounding front license plates and learning about the rules behind them. (Most of the quote stuff is using colloquial terms, mostly because I couldn't really find a better way to describe it; it's not meant to be offensive.)
I know Ontario law/HTA mandates having a front license plate unlike some States in…
Hi Guys! I've just had my trial day yesterday. I was not at fault but was convicted anyways.
It is such a travesty! There is no justice at the traffic court. It is just a no mercy machine to part someone with his money, no common sense applies and no reasonable argument being considered. Such a shame! The justice, the policeman and the prosecutor ganged up against me. The justice kept interrupting…
Well first of all ... glad to have found the forum - hoping to find answers to 'alot' of questions
I was unfortunate in July 2010 in that I ended up rolling my 2009 Ranger three times, through a fence and landing on the roof on a rained-out road that was/is in need of proper repair in Eastern Ontario.
I was assisted out of the vehicle by the driver who was behind me.
I was traveling down the 401, noticed a speed trap, and started flashing my lights -- in order to warn oncoming drivers.
Within a 30 seconds, a car slowed, crossed the grass, and approached me from behind. Lights appeared, and I then realised that this was an officer in an undercover car.
The officer pulled me over, and while he was polite, clearly his motivation was to…
Does anyone know the specific law, statute, Charter right to refer to when a prosecutor or justice attempts to change the charge on a ticket after a trial has begun? I assume I'd object immediately (without interrupting anyone, of course) but what would be the specific legal basis of my objection?
I was right behind a school bus that looked like it was pulling over to the side in order to turn down a side street, I saw no lights so decided to go around (wide street). Was still moving as I was passing, then as I did pass I heard horn and looked back and in fact it was pulling over to p/u school kids (was a block away from my son's school, so just assumed it wouldn't be picking up kids...it…
