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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:25 pm 
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Hi,

Officer pulled me over and gave me three tickets at the same scene - fail to stop at red light, missing driver's license and permit. Am I allowed to go with Option 3 for the red light one while I pick Option 2 for the rest two document related tickets? Or, should it be only one option, either early resolution meeting or trial?

I read many articles that the prosecutors usually drop document related tickets at the early resolution meeting. If I bring all three at the court, I'm afraid I'd lose my chance to defend and eventually win the first ticket, red light stop. I'd really appreciate your advise and/or experience of going with different options. Thank you!!


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:46 am 
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You'll have to deal with them as a group, whichever option you choose. Likely the deal offered will be plea to the red light and the other two will be dropped. Or you take your chance at a trial for all three. The two document offences are very easy to prove at a trial though.


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:16 pm 
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Decatur wrote:
You'll have to deal with them as a group, whichever option you choose. Likely the deal offered will be plea to the red light and the other two will be dropped. Or you take your chance at a trial for all three. The two document offences are very easy to prove at a trial though.


Thank you, Decatur

Does that mean people are not allowed to pick different options for the tickets they get simultaneously? Or, you said so because I would get a higher chance to get the two documents related tickets dropped if I go with the same options altogether?

The strategy I came up with is
- Go with option 2 for the doc related tickets, show the license and permit to a prosecutor at an early resolution meeting and hopefully get them just dropped
- Go with option 3 for the fail to stop at red and defend myself at a trial

I strongly disagree that it was a red light and I failed to stop. It was 70km/h zone and the light turned to amber right before I entered in to the intersection, i.e. couldn't stop safely but drove through. The officer was in the opposite lane, not right at the intersection but there're two cars before hers. It was on top of the hill where the traffic light is, so I highly doubt she was in an accurate position where she can determine the position of a car compared to the stop line. She u-turned to catch me but another interesting point is that there was enough distance/space for her to pull me over before the next traffic light but she just followed me all the way to the next traffic light and then turned on her siren to pull me over.

Once my trial date is set, I'm going to ask for a disclosure and check what she wrote about the situation.

I still wonder whether it's better to pick two different options. What a sigh...


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:18 pm 
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There is no incentive for the Crown to withdraw the first two charges if you plan on going to trial on the third, hence they all get dealt with together. You'll either work out a plea deal on all three or go to trial on all three. Unfortunately unlike the red light ticket, there's not much to fight the ownership/licence tickets on. Even though you might disagree with the red light ticket, it might be in your best interest to work out a plea deal on all three charges. Remember that ANY conviction counts against you with insurance, so you don't want to risk having two convictions on your record (no licence/ownership) to take a gamble on the third (red light). If you're offered any deal where they agree to drop two of the tickets in exchange for a guilty plea on the third, it might be wise to take it. If it was the red light ticket on it's own then I'd say take your chances at trial.


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:34 pm 
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Stanton wrote:
There is no incentive for the Crown to withdraw the first two charges if you plan on going to trial on the third, hence they all get dealt with together. You'll either work out a plea deal on all three or go to trial on all three. Unfortunately unlike the red light ticket, there's not much to fight the ownership/licence tickets on. Even though you might disagree with the red light ticket, it might be in your best interest to work out a plea deal on all three charges. Remember that ANY conviction counts against you with insurance, so you don't want to risk having two convictions on your record (no licence/ownership) to take a gamble on the third (red light). If you're offered any deal where they agree to drop two of the tickets in exchange for a guilty plea on the third, it might be wise to take it. If it was the red light ticket on it's own then I'd say take your chances at trial.


Thank you, Stanton

Yes, that's why I'd like to take Option 2 for the first two doc-related tickets and hope them dropped at a meeting with a prosecutor. Then, I'd only have the red light ticket at a trial. Big assumption with this strategy is that a prosecutor doesn't know I got three tickets altogether but all the info s/he can access is the doc related tickets. If this assumption is wrong, then I definitely need to change my strategy. What I can think of is to have an early resolution meeting and check if what kind of deal offered and then go on a trial. Or, just go with a trial option.

I was driving my Leaf and on my way to a charging station to charge the battery. The documents were in my wallet and I left my wallet in my husband's car because after plugging my Leaf, I needed a ride back home. My husband was ahead of me and he arrived the charging station without knowing me having gotten pulled over by a police. Waited a bit, came back and he found what's happening. Documents were presented but the police said it's too late. Of course they can argue that I have to keep the documents with me while driving. Do you folks think there's any chance all tickets get quashed given the situation? Would ex-cop type service be a best approach? I never used one in my life. I know it's quite a long journey but am pretty concerned already :?


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:06 pm 
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ilike wrote:
Yes, that's why I'd like to take Option 2 for the first two doc-related tickets and hope them dropped at a meeting with a prosecutor. Then, I'd only have the red light ticket at a trial.


The whole idea of them dropping maybe one of the the lesser charges is so there's no trial. If you're going to go to trial anyways, what's the point? They might as well just get a conviction on all three as there's going to be a trial anyways. They are going to use the the charges against each other to see if you'll accept a reduced conviction.

ilike wrote:
I was driving my Leaf and on my way to a charging station to charge the battery. The documents were in my wallet and I left my wallet in my husband's car because after plugging my Leaf, I needed a ride back home. My husband was ahead of me and he arrived the charging station without knowing me having gotten pulled over by a police. Waited a bit, came back and he found what's happening. Documents were presented but the police said it's too late. Of course they can argue that I have to keep the documents with me while driving.


The section that you were charged under will mention how these things need to be surrendered upon request. The officer is under no obligation to wait while you search for it, whether it's hidden somewhere in the car or someone is on their way to deliver it.


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:28 pm 
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bend wrote:
ilike wrote:
Yes, that's why I'd like to take Option 2 for the first two doc-related tickets and hope them dropped at a meeting with a prosecutor. Then, I'd only have the red light ticket at a trial.


The whole idea of them dropping maybe one of the the lesser charges is so there's no trial. If you're going to go to trial anyways, what's the point? They might as well just get a conviction on all three as there's going to be a trial anyways. They are going to use the the charges against each other to see if you'll accept a reduced conviction.


Thanks, bend. So, does that mean a prosecutor would be well aware of the fact that I got three tickets even if I applied Option 2 for the doc-related tickets only?


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:42 pm 
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Prosecutors know all the charges you are facing and have your entire driver's abstract. That's how they file things---all charges from one set of facts for a defendant are placed in the same envelope/folder. It keeps everything tidy and all correspondence and filings are kept together. Its also easier to schedule officers for court. So, you have virtually no likelihood of passing one over on them by thinking you'll be able to 'partially' deal.

As all others have already told you, they will deal with your charges in the aggregate. So, if you are going to trial on the red light offence, they won't give you any deal on the others. All charges will simply proceed to trial, unless you opt to pay one or more beforehand. There is absolutely no incentive to give you any deal if you'll be wasting court time anyway---they might as well proceed on all charges. Your strategy is guaranteed to backfire---all offences result from the same incident so they absolutely will know about them all. As I've said, they are all stored in one trial envelope/file. But even if that were not the case, the officer's notes will also reference all the charges so they'd know that way anyway. Bottom line: either deal with them all or get ready to go to trial on all.


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:25 am 
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highwaystar wrote:
Prosecutors know all the charges you are facing and have your entire driver's abstract. That's how they file things---all charges from one set of facts for a defendant are placed in the same envelope/folder. It keeps everything tidy and all correspondence and filings are kept together. Its also easier to schedule officers for court. So, you have virtually no likelihood of passing one over on them by thinking you'll be able to 'partially' deal.

As all others have already told you, they will deal with your charges in the aggregate. So, if you are going to trial on the red light offence, they won't give you any deal on the others. All charges will simply proceed to trial, unless you opt to pay one or more beforehand. There is absolutely no incentive to give you any deal if you'll be wasting court time anyway---they might as well proceed on all charges. Your strategy is guaranteed to backfire---all offences result from the same incident so they absolutely will know about them all. As I've said, they are all stored in one trial envelope/file. But even if that were not the case, the officer's notes will also reference all the charges so they'd know that way anyway. Bottom line: either deal with them all or get ready to go to trial on all.


Thank you, highwaystar

Does anyone know whether all tickets would be quashed at a trial IF a police doesn't show up? Or, is that decision solely up to a judge, i.e. what to drop what to be still charged even in the absence of the police?


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:28 pm 
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In the absence of the officer the prosecutor will often simply withdraw the charges, since his main witness isn't there to testify. However, in some cases they will try to get an adjournment and reschedule for another date.


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:34 am 
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daggx wrote:
In the absence of the officer the prosecutor will often simply withdraw the charges, since his main witness isn't there to testify. However, in some cases they will try to get an adjournment and reschedule for another date.


Thanks, daggx

From all the advice so far, I think I'll go with Option 2 for the documents tickets, see what prosecutor would say/offer. If the offer sounds reasonable, then I pay whatever lesser fine and go to a trial for the red light ticket. Worst case, I'll just bring all three to a trial.

Can I still go to a trial if early resolution meeting outcome is unsatisfactory, can't I? On the back of the ticket, it says "Option 2 - ... by choosing this option you do not forego the right to a trial".


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:03 am 
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It appears as if you're not understanding. You don't just go to the meeting with the document tickets and the red light set for trial. If you do the prosecutor will not offer you anything and go to trial on all 3 of which you will undoubtedly be found guilty of at least two.

You need to have a meeting on all three tickets and hope the prosecutor offers to drop the 2 document offences if you pay the red light one.

The other option is just to go to trial on all three with the same outcome as above.

_________________
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:43 am 
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If you want to resolve this with the prosecutor, you can ask to have the red light charge dropped down to:

HTA 144 (10) : Obeying lane lights
(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10)

http://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK221

It carries a set fine of $85.00 and no demerit points.

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do-i/set-fines/set-fines-i/schedule-43/

The prosecutor will very likely drop the document related charges at this time.


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:36 am 
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ancientlyre wrote:
If you want to resolve this with the prosecutor, you can ask to have the red light charge dropped down to:

HTA 144 (10) : Obeying lane lights
(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10)

http://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK221

It carries a set fine of $85.00 and no demerit points.

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do- ... hedule-43/

The prosecutor will very likely drop the document related charges at this time.


This is good advice. In some cases, the Prosecutor will insist on getting a guilty plea on the red light offence in exchange for dropping the other two, however in my experience most of them will do as suggested here.

_________________
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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Re: Multiple tickets including Red Light - Fail to Stop
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:37 pm 
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ancientlyre wrote:
If you want to resolve this with the prosecutor, you can ask to have the red light charge dropped down to:

HTA 144 (10) : Obeying lane lights
(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10)

http://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK221

It carries a set fine of $85.00 and no demerit points.

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do-i/set-fines/set-fines-i/schedule-43/

The prosecutor will very likely drop the document related charges at this time.


Thank you, ancientlyre

I guess this would be a best scenario other than all three getting dropped. Do you know whether I'm allowed to ask for such a drop at an early resolution meeting? I mean, people are allowed to be proactive and suggest possible resolution? Or, is it prosecutor's discretion solely?


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