T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a ticket

Hey guys, I am totally new to this and I am here to look for advice.

I was T-boned to my right front doorat a four way stop intersection in the Niagara on the Lake area, I was 3/4 acrossed the intersection then a car just bumped me. We waited for almost 3 hours for the police to show up, then as I was buzy calling my insurance company I was given an at-fault ticket saying I disobey the stop sign. "Start from stopped position not in safety." HTA 142 (2). I argued immediately that it was clearly the other car's fault as I did not see any car to my right when I decided to go and as I almost passed the intersection I got hit. The officer said since there was no evidence, no camera, no witness, he has to assume we arrived at the same time and the other car has the "right of way" and the only explaination was that I did not stop at the stop sign.

I am sending my request of disclosure tomorrow to see what the officer has against me but I highly doubt he has anything since he was 3 hours late to the scene and all he has was the statement from me and the other car.

The court date is november this year.

What do I need to prepare for this case and what are my chances of winning?

My girlfriend was seating at the passenger's sit at the time of the collision, can she be my witness?

Thank you guys!

gate, horse and bolted.... Dashcam never fails,

other than that, somone will be along to give some advise,

sorry to hear your accident;

getting a ticket after that (if that is what happened) is adding insult to injury !

Why would the officer say there was no witness when you say your girlfriend was in the car with you? I assume he did not talk to her then.

But anyways, yes your girlfriend can testify. But you only want her to testify if what she saw was that (1) you came to complete stop, and (2) you arrived at stop sign before other car, and (3) you proceeded as you had the right of way and it was safe to do so. Actually same applies to you for testifying as well.

I would also have her write a statement that you can give to your insurance company so they do not find you at fault. Remember that the insurance company has it's own rules for determining who is at fault, regardless of who got charged by police.

jsherk wrote:

Why would the officer say there was no witness when you say your girlfriend was in the car with you? I assume he did not talk to her then.

But anyways, yes your girlfriend can testify. But you only want her to testify if what she saw was that (1) you came to complete stop, and (2) you arrived at stop sign before other car, and (3) you proceeded as you had the right of way and it was safe to do so. Actually same applies to you for testifying as well.

I would also have her write a statement that you can give to your insurance company so they do not find you at fault. Remember that the insurance company has it's own rules for determining who is at fault, regardless of who got charged by police.

When the officer talked to me, he knows that my girlfriend was in the car with me and he was asking if both of us were ok. I guess he did not talk to her was because we were both Chinese international students so maybe he assumed she does not speak good English, while in fact she does. So when he went on about there were no evidence and witness we just assumed she doesn't qualify given her relation to me.

I also have a screen shot of the intersection from google map saying its an unusual intersection and I would be going so fast so that I can be hit to my right. But is that relevent to my ticket? For it's only about me disobeying the stop sign and not about the collision. I will post the picture below.

The stopping is not in question as per the ticket wording. It's all about who arrived at the intersection first. It would appear that you were due to the fact the front of their car hit the side of yours.

I can see a withdrawal of the charge because it will boil down to a he-said he-said between you and the other driver and no judge will convict on that.

They did not take a statement from your girlfriend as she was not an independent witness...had nothing to do with race...if there was a person standing on the sidewalk, who had no connection to either vehicle involved, a statement would have been taken from that person...

In my opinion a person sitting in the car is just as much as valid witness as somebody standing on the sidewalk.

screeech wrote:

They did not take a statement from your girlfriend as she was not an independent witness...had nothing to do with race...

^^^ that exactly, wife had a car accident a while ago; insurance wouldn't take her passengers side as evidence as it needed to be totally independant

I agree but a witness in your car is a friend/family member, do you think that they are going to be impartial?

I wouldn't side with another car driver if I was in the car with my wife? Or admit it was our fault.

Maybe the case of a taxi driver or something possibly?

But I'm certainly hearing you

jsherk wrote:

In my opinion a person sitting in the car is just as much as valid witness as somebody standing on the sidewalk.

Yes bobajob, you are correct...the key word is "independent" witness...No one said you could not bring your witness along to testify, infact you should...a Justice of the Peace will give more weight to the testimony of an independent person than to one who is not...

If cops came to the scene you can't win this ticket, you should have dealt with other driver and not involve the insurance company nor Cops, Insurance will do an internal investigate if there wasn't cop involved otherwise they will Judge by the police reports, there are drivers DO FRAUD INSURANCE in Ontario, you better becareful.

About Cops, no they don't look down on Race or nationality, only bystander or none relationship to you can be your witness, DASHCAM is the only one can help you, did you have it when the accident happens ?

I'm curious, why won't he win this trial because the cops were there?

If the police did not witness the accident themselves, then in order to be convicted at trial for the charge the prosecutor will need (1) the police officer that charged you, AND (2) a witness that SAW what happened (usually the other driver). If the police officer shows up to trial but no witness, then they must drop the charge.

And given the fact that you have a witness that was in your car, that will probably testify to your story, then the prosecutors chances of winning are slim to none, even if the other driver shows up.

Now if they have more than one witness on the other side that saw the accident and will testify to the other drivers story then you will probably lose.

thank you for all your reply, I sent out the disclosure request yesterday and just waiting for that to come.

I am uploading a diagram that I drew up about what happened. It's a four way stop sign intersection with a slope, judging by where I am hit, it's clear that there is no way we arrived at the same time or the other car arrived before me. Will this be a strong defence for me?

Also about the witness, I am definitely bringing my girlfriend to the court with me, do I need to let them know ahead of time that I am bringing a witness?

As for the other driver, will she also receive a notice that I am bringing this case up to the court and she might be a witness? because from my understanding I am only fighting this ticket against the police officer.

The cop showed up three hours late to the scene, I am guessing the other car was a total loss so our insurance company was contacted. They told me afterwards that they see it as a 50-50 accident. I am already suffering a increase of my insurance.

When the officer showed up, he asked me if I called a tow truck because I said my car is not operable, and I said no, he then told me to give them a call. I immediately called my insurance company for that and the whole process took almost half an hour. During this time the other driver was constantly talking to the officer and it was freezing outside so I had to go back to my car to make the phone call. When I finally finished the phone call, the officer asked me what happened, I summed everything within 5 sentences, and he said "that's exactly what she said." Tha's the end of the whole conversation.

I am not focusing on whether the officer treated me differently because of my race, but the fact the other driver talked to him for half an hour and I only had a very short conversation with the officer might lead to a unfair result against me. I did not had a chance to listen to what she said so I can disagree with any false statements and that might lead to my ticket.

Anyways, it's already very helpful from all your replies and I will keep you guys posted!

Also, if after I receive the disclosure and nothing really strong or solid is mentioned there, can I make a phone call to the prosecutor to see if they can drop the case? Or the police officer? The court is in Niagara falls and I live in Guelph. I am having my final semester in college and I am really super busy around that time especially the court date is close to my final. I feel like spending my whole day going there and back is really not the best I can think of. This case has already taken a lot of my time, and I totally think it was going to be the other driver's fault when everything happened. I was really suprised when I got the ticket.

I would send the diagram to your insurance company and ask them to reconsider. They may or they may not. But for trial, yes I think it is very helpful.

You do not need to tell them you are bringing your girlfriend as a witness unless they ask.

The other driver MUST be at the trial to testify against you since the officer did not see the accident. If the officer shows up, but not the other driver, they must drop the charge. So yes the other driver will be asked to come to court to testify. When you ask for disclosure, ask for the officers notes AND all witness statements AND all will-say statements, so this way you know what the other driver told the officer. Your trial date in court is the time you get question the other driver about what they said.

Once you get disclosure, you can call and try to arrange a phone conversation with the prosecutor (not the police officer). In this call you would probably mention that your girlfriend was in the car and agrees with you that you stopped and then proceeded into the intersection before the other car arrived at the stop sign. The prosecutor may or may not listen to you, and may or may not drop the charge.

jsherk wrote:

I would send the diagram to your insurance company and ask them to reconsider. They may or they may not. But for trial, yes I think it is very helpful.

You do not need to tell them you are bringing your girlfriend as a witness unless they ask.

The other driver MUST be at the trial to testify against you since the officer did not see the accident. If the officer shows up, but not the other driver, they must drop the charge. So yes the other driver will be asked to come to court to testify. When you ask for disclosure, ask for the officers notes AND all witness statements AND all will-say statements, so this way you know what the other driver told the officer. Your trial date in court is the time you get question the other driver about what they said.

Once you get disclosure, you can call and try to arrange a phone conversation with the prosecutor (not the police officer). In this call you would probably mention that your girlfriend was in the car and agrees with you that you stopped and then proceeded into the intersection before the other car arrived at the stop sign. The prosecutor may or may not listen to you, and may or may not drop the charge.

I have the disclosure sent to me today and here are some key points.

1. Witness statement from the other driver, taken 2 months after the accident.

2. MVA report. Within this report, my phone number is completely wrong, I have an Alberta number and in the report I have a 905 number which I have no idea whose number is that. Also my licence class is G2, not G stated in the report; they took down my car model wrong; and number of occupants it says only 1, when in fact me and my girlfriend were both in the car; and there was also a diagram about the collision, as mentioned before the intersection has a nearly 45 degree slope and in that report it's almost 90 degree.

The witness statement I quote:

"On Feb. 18, 2016 I was driving my vehicle south on

XXXX Rd in the Town of Niagara on the Lake. I came to a stop at a four

way stop intersection of XXXX Rd at XXX St. When I came to a

complete stop there was only one vehicle east bound that stopped before me.

I did notice a vehicle west bound pull to the stop sign after me. As I had

the right of way, I proceeded thru the intersection. At that time my

vehicle and the vehicle west bound collided in the intersection."

MVA Synopsis:

"The intersection of XXXX Rd and XXX St is control by a four way

stop signs. V2 stopped on R1 SB at stop sign. V1 stopped on R2 WB at stop

sign. Both vehicles waited till an unrelated vehicle travelling EB on R2 to

clear the intersection. At that time R2 began thru the intersection as well

as R1. The collision occurred in the middle of the intersection."

What do I need to do now? I see a lot flaws in the MVA report, but I am guessing that's not enough for them to drop the case. Also from the witness statement, I don't see any strong evidence indicating she was there before me. In the report, it says my traveling speed was approx 15 km/hr. That's not fast enough to say I was driving dangerously when crossing the intersection.

The collision point was my passenger side front door ONLY. If I was going fast enough to beat the other driver to the collision point, the collison would've been more serious, at least reaches my back door. I am guessing she wants to take a right, and she just did not stop safely so that the car's front reaches to the intersection and hit me.

I would just show up with your diagram and your girlfriend. The officers testimony is just about identification. He may give his opinion, but they need the other driver to testify.

If the other driver does not show up as a witness, then they will have to drop the charge and you win.

If the other driver does show up and testify, then you and your girlfriend will both need to testify as well and assuming both you and your girlfriends testimonies are beliveable, you will most likely win as two testimonies will outweigh the one testimony of the other driver. No guarantees you will win though, just a more likely chance in this situation.

screeech wrote:

I'm curious, why won't he win this trial because the cops were there?

SOrry, i'm talking about Insurance's side of charge, not Court, Court is between driver and the Police, as you can see his insurance already said 50/50 weather you fight or not both drivers premium will be increased, if it not a major damage i would put Insurance and Police aside, unless the car is totaled or can't drive, in my knowledge if you invited Cop to come they will give out a ticket to one of the driver, Cops won't come for nothing. If you fight then other guy will fight too and then Insurance will laugh and get both premium increases.

Unless you have DashCam or video showed that you are 100% not at fault.

Where insurance will consider 50/50 ?

1, Parking lot

2, All ways stop

3, Malfunction intersection light

Read other topic this youngmen rear end someone that slammed the brake, he then got off and let the youngmen go but he still got a ticket ? hard to say, law is just natural.

RandySolara wrote:

screeech wrote:

I'm curious, why won't he win this trial because the cops were there?

SOrry, i'm talking about Insurance's side of charge, not Court, Court is between driver and the Police, as you can see his insurance already said 50/50 weather you fight or not both drivers premium will be increased, if it not a major damage i would put Insurance and Police aside, unless the car is totaled or can't drive, in my knowledge if you invited Cop to come they will give out a ticket to one of the driver, Cops won't come for nothing. If you fight then other guy will fight too and then Insurance will laugh and get both premium increases.

Unless you have DashCam or video showed that you are 100% not at fault.

Where insurance will consider 50/50 ?

1, Parking lot

2, All ways stop

3, Malfunction intersection light

Read other topic this youngmen rear end someone that slammed the brake, he then got off and let the youngmen go but he still got a ticket ? hard to say, law is just natural.

So are you saying if I fight this ticket and win, the ticket will go to the other driver? Isn't it going to be an endless loop then? Also my insurance only increased based on my claim for this accident, if I have this ticket it will go even higher.

As for dash cams, no I did not have it back then, but to avoid future situations like this I bought one afterwards.