32km/h reduced to 15km/h then and amended back to 32km/hr

ejeffay
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32km/h reduced to 15km/h then and amended back to 32km/hr

by: ejeffay on
Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:54 pm

March 17th (st. patricks day)

i got a 32km/hr reduced to 15km/h and chose to fight it (yes i no..im an idiot..but i was pressured into it by a family member cuz any ticket will raise insurance rates)...this was hwy 406 northbound st. catharines

set total payable $52.50 for HTA 128

so the same time that i sent in opting for option 3 i also asked for full disclosure via a form.
Got court date of October 18th, 2010
I was sent back disclosure containing:
-photocopy of ticket (front side)
-photocopy of "notice of trial"
-Notice about confidentiality and proper use of crown disclosure
-2 pages with 2 pages photocopied each of officer notes
AND
-Charge screening form stating that prosecuter intends to amend ticket to original speed of 132km/h at trial (f*** my life)..

I figured i had nothing to lose by fighting this ticket....but now i see that i DO infact have something to lose....i lost the reduction the officer made. The only bit of optimism left shining is that said on that same document stating "NOTE: the defendant or authorized agent must attend at trial to enter a plea to any reduced charge. The judge may choose not to follow the prosecutor's sentencing recommendation"...

This all came in an envelope that was strangely NOT sealed (is this normal? can i use this somehow?).
I can make out most of the officers notes but not all and so because of this i'm thinking about requesting a typed copy of the notes as well as MORE information to be disclosed.

How do i go about doing this? do i just fax to the number given stating my ICON and offence number along with the information that i request?

Oh and by the way, the trial is held in St. Catharine's, Ont and i live in Pickering, Ont.

Please help me out.


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by: Simon Borys on
Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:32 am

The fact that the envelope was not sealed is irrelevant. With respect to the officers notes, does your inability to read all of them impair your ability to make a defence? If so, request a typed copy, if not, don't bother. With respect to "more" disclosure, what are you looking for specifically and why? There is plenty of case law on the fact that disclosure can not be used as a fishing expedition, so don't ask for the kitchen sink.
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by: ejeffay on
Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:40 am

About the prosecutor amending the speed back to 132/100 from 115/100, is it rare for the JP to reduce it back to 115/100 again or no? Because at this point if the officer does show up, I beleive that's the only thing I can hope for.

I'll post what I can make out from the notes soon. There's an instance where officer pulled me over at approx 21:50 and then at 21:55 goes on to say that he tested the device at 02:00.


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by: Simon Borys on
Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:17 am

The radar can be tested at the beginning and at the end of a shift. That is sufficient.

With respect to the ticket, if it is for 15 over then you can still deal with it as such. The only time it can be amended up is if a trial commences. In order for that to happen you have to plead "not guilty" when you are arraigned. You can just let the prosecutor know your intention is to plead "guilty" when you show up at court. That way he will not have an opportunity to ask the JP to reinstate the full amount for the speed.
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by: ejeffay on
Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:20 am

so the radar doesn't HAVE to be tested BOTH before AND after?
And to correct what i said before, the notes didn't state that he tested it at 02:00HRS, it actually just says 21:00HRS (which is the initial and only testing mentioned). I simply mis-read it.


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by: Reflections on
Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:55 am

It does need a before and after, just not immediately before and after your stop. Beginning and end of shift is fine.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


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by: ejeffay on
Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:09 pm

so in the disclosure given, it does state in his notes that he tested BEFORE the stop but there is no mentioning of testing AFTER... could I use this?


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by: Simon Borys on
Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:26 am

What often happens in radar disclosure is that the officer photocopies his notes of the incident, which probably include the test before, but he tests the radar at the end of his shift (or later in his shift) so he doesn't photocopy all of his notes between your ticket and that time.

You could make a disclosure request for this and if you don't get it or if he doesn't have a test time recorded you could argue that point at a trial; that the officer can not be certain the device was working properly at the time he recorded your speed since he didn't check it after. If you don't get disclosure about this your only option may be to ask the officer about this on the stand.
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by: Biron on
Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:07 am

.
Hi ejeffay:
ejeffay wrote:March 17th (st. patricks day)

i got a 32km/hr reduced to 15km/h and chose to fight it ...this was hwy 406 northbound st. catharines

set total payable $52.50 for HTA 128


Got court date of October 18th, 2010
I was sent back disclosure containing:

...
-2 pages with 2 pages photocopied each of officer notes
AND
-Charge screening form stating that prosecuter intends to amend ticket to original speed of 132km/h at trial...
You Haven't lost anything yet.

The charge has NOT been amended yet. As Simon says," if it is for 15 over then you can still deal with it as such. The only time it can be amended up is if a trial commences". It won't be amended unless you plead "not guilty" when you are arraigned at the time of the trial.

If you go for a trial and plead not guilty, before calling the Officer to give his testimony, the prosecutor will advise the JP that, based on the expected Officer's evidence, he will make a motion to amend the certificate to reflect the original 132 k/h. The JP will consider amending the certificate at the end of the trial and after submissions. Most likely he/she will do it.

If you go to court but plead guilty, you will be convicted of 15 k/h over, the fine will go up to $47.00 plus court cost and victim surcharge for a total payable of $60.00.

If you pay the ticket as it is, you save $8.00 and don't waste your time going to court.

When the speed has been reduced by the Officer to 15 k/h over the limit, I always advise my clients to pay the ticket.

Cheers.
.


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by: Simon Borys on
Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:24 pm

Biron wrote:If you go to court but plead guilty, you will be convicted of 15 k/h over, the fine will go up to $47.00 plus court cost and victim surcharge for a total payable of $60.00.
15 over = $37.50 + $10 victim surcharge + $5 court cost = $52.50
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by: Biron on
Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:58 pm

.
Hi Simon :

Simon Borys wrote:
Biron wrote:If you go to court but plead guilty, you will be convicted of 15 k/h over, the fine will go up to $47.00 plus court cost and victim surcharge for a total payable of $60.00.
15 over = $37.50 + $10 victim surcharge + $5 court cost = $52.50
Your calculation is based on Schedule B of the HTA Set Fines:
a) 1-19 kilometres per hour over the maximum speed limit, $2.50 per kilometre"

That amount is applied at the time of serving the Notice of Offence.

However, once the mater is dealt by the court, the court MUST apply the fines set in section 128 (14) and in this case:

Penalty

(14) Every person who contravenes this section or any by-law or regulation made under this section is guilty of an offence and on convictionis liable, where the rate of speed at which the motor vehicle was driven,

(a) is less than 20 kilometres per hour over the speed limit, to a fine of $3 for each kilometre per hour that the motor vehicle was driven over the speed limit;


If convicted, the cour WILL apply the fine set in the HTA and NOT schedule B set fine.

Cheers.
.




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by: will_do_better on
Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:10 pm

Simon Borys wrote:With respect to the ticket, if it is for 15 over then you can still deal with it as such. The only time it can be amended up is if a trial commences. In order for that to happen you have to plead "not guilty" when you are arraigned. You can just let the prosecutor know your intention is to plead "guilty" when you show up at court. That way he will not have an opportunity to ask the JP to reinstate the full amount for the speed.
AND
Biron wrote:You Haven't lost anything yet.

The charge has NOT been amended yet. As Simon says," if it is for 15 over then you can still deal with it as such. The only time it can be amended up is if a trial commences". It won't be amended unless you plead "not guilty" when you are arraigned at the time of the trial.

If you go for a trial and plead not guilty, before calling the Officer to give his testimony, the prosecutor will advise the JP that, based on the expected Officer's evidence, he will make a motion to amend the certificate to reflect the original 132 k/h. The JP will consider amending the certificate at the end of the trial and after submissions. Most likely he/she will do it.
Hi guys, from what Simon and Biron mentioned it sounds like EVERY person who is scheduled for a court date still has a chance to plead guilty to the reduced charge as seen on the ticket (if the charge was indeed reduced, if not then this is irrelevant).

1) Is this true?
2) Or are there courts out there who don't let people pick anymore (ie: once you get a court date, you already picked 'NOT GUILTY' and we will not ask you again when you come to court and you will be tried with the non-reduced charge)??
3) Or even sadder - they will let you come to court and allow you to plead guilty.. but only to the non-reduced charge??

Thanks a lot! This website is full of knowledge by the way. Thanks and thanks again! :D


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by: Simon Borys on
Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:24 pm

No, it's your option to plea guilty or not guilty at any time, upto and including when you show up at court for a trial. Even if you had said all along you were pleading not guilty, when you are arraigned you can just say "guilty" and it's done. Again, you are still being tried on the reduced charge until the trial actually commences (that's when you say not guilty), so that's what you'd be pleading to.
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by: ejeffay on
Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:21 pm

you guys have been of great help. Sorry for not replying for so long.

So i sent in my re-disclosure request using the sample disclosure from ticketcombat.com that amongst other things asks for typed version of any hand written officers notes. This was sent approx. mid july.

It is now within a week of my trial and I have yet to receive this disclosure. Currently i'm set on pleading guilty to the original reduced ticket but this just raises questions as to what COULD happen should i decided to try and get an adjournment and whether it's worth it.

To prove that i have infact sent the request for re-disclosure all i have is a receipt for a pre-paid envelope from a Canada Post office near my home with the time and date on it. Along with this i have a information slip pertaining to where i should be mailing any disclosure requests. This was handed and even highlighted for me by a person from the court house area when i decided to submit my request for a trial in person.

Now i know none of this matters if i'm going to accept the guilty plea but i cant help but wonder the possibilities...any thoughts?

And once again i must thank you.


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