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63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:26 am 
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Hi there,

19 year old G Driver

Today I received a speeding infraction on shoreham drive near York University. A speed trap had been setup.

The infraction is 63 in a 40 as the officer stated it was a school zone. Also the insurance card that was in the glove box (parents car) was expired so a further infraction was issued. The officer stated that since I was a student he would cut me a break if I could provide proof that the vehicle was insured on the date of the offence.

I have thought of quite a many ways to proceed as this is my second speeding infraction. The first was a 10 over in November 2013 and this would be the second.

I shall start with the easiest infraction to get rid of : the failure to produce insurance one,

Can I or my parents just call the insurance company and ask them to mail us/email us the insurance card ?
The officer did state that if I could provide proof that it was insured on today's date he would toss this one out


As for the speeding charge the officer informed that if he saw me in court he would try to get the ticket lowered to a 15 over as I was a student -- No points , ~~50$ fine
My question is, would it be more worthwhile to obtain disclosure? He was using LIDAR and had me from quite a distance.

As for him showing up and possible adjournments so that he may be busy or on call one of the court times, I was looking for some advice. This is Toronto Police and the courthouse is the York Civic Centre. Not sure as to how the proceedings are there as previously went to Newmarket (Davis Drive). Now the first infraction did not see an increase in insurance premiums, not sure how the second will play out. Any ideas?

any advice on how to proceed for either infraction would be appreciated, thank you.


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:19 pm 
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Was the enforcement point on Shoreham & Murray Ross Pkwy? I noticed them on Waze around ~11AM today.

Prosecutor will drop the insurance card if you bring evidence you were insured at the time of the offence. In a plea-deal you're guaranteed to get a no-point amendment for the speeding charge.

You should always request trial; wait for notice of trial and then request disclosure: officer notes and lidar manual

After reviewing his notes you can decide how you want to proceed


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:16 pm 
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The officer has NO discretion in court once the matter is in the prosecutor's hands. So, there is no guarantee any of your charges will be withdrawn or lowered. Put simply, the prosecutor might NOT want to withdraw the insurance card violation nor lower the speeding offence. So, don't be fooled by the officer's comments---they have no discretion in the matter once its before the courts. If the officer wanted to give you a break, he/she had their chance to do so at the roadside. Both offences are absolute liability and not at all hard to prove by the prosecution---so they likely aren't going to be too willing to give you any breaks, especially since this is already your second speeding offence. As a student and previous offender, they'll tell you that you should have known better. As this trial might take 20 minutes at most to conduct, it won't take up too much court time. So, there's not a lot of incentive for them to give you much of any break, if any. Remember, sometimes prosecutors will take matters to trial because they need to send a message. Just be aware of this.


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:02 pm 
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@iFly55 - yeah you got it, right there. next to some sort of small park on shoreham, cruiser was parked between the trees. He himself was on the road. As for going to trial, i believe that option 3 would be my best bet or would option 2 be worth my while?

@highwaystar - thanks for the headsup as well as warnings, I'm hoping for a break either way and DID have valid insurance. (got a copy from the insurance company the same day, went back to the trap area but cop was gone. Anyhow what's done is done.


From what I understand, best scenario I walk out with a 15 over and insurance infraction gets tossed.

Worst case.. well things stay as they are.


Any idea on how slow the courts are down at the York Civic Centre and the probability of the officer showing up?


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:31 pm 
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While studying for my exams, i had an idea relating to this matter,

I have filed option 3 for both tickets on this matter, but what if I was to go to the courthouse and instead ask for an early resolution meeting with the prosecutor regarding only the failure to produce insurance card? I could bring proof that the vehicle was validly insured at the time and if i play my cards hopefully get the charge withdrawn before the matter even went to court. The other speeding charge would remain as is, for the courts to process and my trial date to appear. I would not even bring up the speeding charge but rather would make it possible to eliminate one matter. Documentation violations aren't really a serious charge, and plenty of people get these withdrawn anyhow. Worth a shot? Save us both some time in court? Atleast for this matter that is..


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
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Location: Ontario
Since both tickets were issued at the same time, they’ll need to be dealt with together. The Crown won’t drop one charge if you’re planning on going to trial on the other, there’s no incentive for them to do so.
wmalik81 wrote:
Documentation violations aren't really a serious charge
Insurance providers look at all charges. They'll treat a conviction for not having your proof of insurance the same as speeding.


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:01 pm 
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Just got a court date, January 22nd at 10:30am. Gonna submit for Disclosure on Wednesday with the form from ticketcombat. Do you also HAVE to fill out the one supplied by the court or will the one from ticketcombat suffice (i.e they won't hassle you and try and get you to fill out the other form).


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:56 pm 
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The form form ticket combat should be fine, I don't think they will give you any trouble. Just make sure you provide all the information they need to process your request. One caution regarding the ticket combat form though. That form requests a number of things that don't apply to a speeding or missing insurance card case, so make sure to remove the inapplicable stuff before you submit it. This topic here (topic2959.html) covers what should and should not be in a disclosure request so take a quick read before submitting your request to the court.


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:07 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:08 pm
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Don't use the form provided by the courts or the prosecutor's office: http://www1.toronto.ca/City%20Of%20Toro ... NonFil.pdf

There is no space to list specific items that you want: officer's notes, laser/radar manual. If you use their form, you can't go to court and tell the JP you didn't get X, Y, and Z... because you never had opportunity to ask for it.

daggx is right, use the sample disclosure form: topic2959.html


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:36 am 
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Went by on the 20th of November to ask for disclosure, person at the receptionist desk happened to be a prosecutor himself and was quite annoyed at me for wanting to use a ticketcombat form. He practically tried to force me to fill out the city's form and said that he could not accept the secondary form. I told him it was my right to specify what exactly I needed on the request as well as short forms that he might not be able to provide. He then made a note on the city's application specifying the above and then showed me he had done so He said he could only stamp and receive the city's forms. He did just that and then handed me back the entire package. The TicketCombat forms have not been stamped but I have received Disclosure. Trial is on 22nd of January I have a feeling I may have shot myself in the foot by not being a bit more assertive. Got disclosure right then and there on the spot. Here are the attached files.


http://tinypic.com/r/i77hbb/8
My deciphering of the above:

md ID 2 --> asked for both pieces of id?
63 @ 186.2 L1 --> clocked me at 63 using LIDAR?
c cool d --> calm, cool and dry conditions?
UL LRB --> not sure about this one, any one have any ideas?


http://tinypic.com/r/332w6ww/8
FTP - Ins Card = Failure to Provide Insurance Card

Not sure if I should be asking for something additional at this point and time, or as to what my next move should be. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

NOTE: You may have to play around by cancelling the ads in order to view the images, They do work just need to cancel out the ads.


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:08 pm
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Did you receive a copy of the LIDAR operator's manual?

You can resubmit a new disclosure request, this time highlight the short form writing; ask for it to be explained or written in plain English for you to understand.


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:11 am
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Have approximately 6 weeks to trial, and no did not receive LIDAR operator manual.


Additional request should be made in person? Prosecutors office does not seem to take to kindly to people exercising their rights and requesting additional disclosure. I'd rather fax it, keep the receipts and then bring it up at trial. Please advise. Thanks


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Re: 63 in a 40 - York Univ + Failure to Surrender Insurance
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:05 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:11 am
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Couple of questions still in my head --> We are approximately 1 month from trial, (Jan 22)

a) Is it worth my while to seek additional disclosure via fax or in person? --> I would be looking for a copy of the LIDAR manual and an outline as to what exactly the officer was saying in terms of short forms --> I know disclosure says take 6-8 weeks beforehand but is it worth sending it in now? (~4 weeks). If they give it to me on trial day, am i seeking an adjournment based on the fact evidence crucial to my defence was disclosed to me just today and I am going to need reasonable time to review it and or seek legal advice?

b) I know all policies are provider specific but as for a general idea if I take the plea bargain of 15 over and insurance card tossed will i be looking at substantial premium increase? (first conviction was a 10 over back in November 2013. I am an occasional driver on my parents policy, no premium increase the first time around, not too sure about now. what's a percentage to keep in mind?

c) When taking a plea bargain, does it leave the option for the defendant to show remorse? --> in the sense that I am a student with heavy financial responsibility and loans (~20k with almost 60k by the time I graduate) and the only reason I was speeding that morning was because I was late for an exam I had for courses I pay for independently. It is no excuse to get me off the hook but will it help me in further reducing the fine? I literally have to pay an additional 5 thousand in fees very soon even 50-60$ is quite a lot to me at this point and time.

Also if anyone sees any holes in disclosure (links above) please feel free to add in.

Thank you everyone for your time. Happy Holidays.


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