Hi all...I'm hoping I can get some clarification on a couple of questions I haven't been able to research myself. In September I got a ticket for going 79 in a 50 zone at a speed trap. I still need to request disclosure as I was waiting for my notice of trial which came in December and I was busy with the holidays in December so I'm just getting to it now - I'll send it tomorrow and court date is in February although I need to get the date moved because I'm sure the officer will attend (he was pulling over 3-4 people every 5 minutes so probably issued a lot of tickets that are all scheduled for this day). Based on some comments he made though, I very much doubt he will attend a rescheduled trial if I'm the only one. Also, he's a local cop in a scuzzy city with real crime, not an OPP officer, and I was pulled over during a back to school blitz (not near a school though! which the officer himself said) so I don't think speed enforcement is what he usually does/cares about. Anyway, I'm still going to prepare on the off chance he does show up to a rescheduled trial. I have two questions though as I start preparing my defense. First, context. The officer who was using the RADAR/LIDAR (not sure which) was the one who approached me when I pulled over and the one who handed me my ticket. There were three police vehicles parked on the side street by where they were doing the enforcement. One was a completely unmarked vehicle, but parked the wrong way at the VERY end of the street (visible from the top of the hill I was coming over). This vehicle was empty. There were two other cruisers who each had at least one officer in them (in the driver's seats). There might have been passengers too but I couldn't see from where I was. So at least three officers were working the trap. The officer who was using the RADAR took my license/registration/insurance to one of the other officers, spoke a moment, then went back to pulling people over. I counted 4 warnings given to other drivers in the 5-8 minutes I was waiting before the officer went back to the cruiser, received the ticket, and brought it to me. He explained it was reduced to 65 because I have a clean record and made some other comments about how they're just trying to get people to slow down because it's back to school and he doesn't want to penalize people etc. The ticket is entirely typed, even the signature is typed. It was certainly written by one of the other officers. Also, after the officer and I concluded our little chat I was able to pull forward, do a very precise by the book 3-point turn, and turn back onto the original street I'd been traveling within 30 seconds. I had to do a wide right turn because the officer was already back on the street, radar at eye level, and waiting for cars to show up over the hill. So the first question I have about this is, it's clear that any notes that were written weren't written by the officer who gave me the ticket and used the RADAR - they must have been written by one of the other officers. Provided the officer admits this/it gets proven in a trial, what effect would this have on the validity of the officer's testimony? If he's testifying based on notes written by another officer, and that officer wrote the notes based on what the first officer originally told him, does that count as hearsay? Is there any other way I can use this? Is this a tack I should pursue? The second question is, I know that it is always helpful to the officer's case if they establish that they visually identified a speeder, before they start pacing or using a speed measuring device. But is it required for them to do so? There is absolutely no way the officer was visually identifying the speeders before using the RADAR - he was just using the RADAR on every car as it crested the hill. In my case, he was walking out into the middle of the street and flagging me down before I was even heading downhill (so under a second from when he could have seen me) and like I said, he was holding the RADAR at eye level pointed at the top of the hill when I was leaving, too. Is this something I can use? One last bonus question. It's not a fatal error, but on the ticket beside my birthday there are three checkboxes. Motor vehicle involved (N), Collision involved (Y), and Witnesses (Y). The Collision involved box is checked (and the other two are blank). There was no collision. I presume the witnesses box was supposed to be checked. There weren't because the other officers in the cruisers weren't visible from the top of the hill, but that's not really relevant unless they want to testify. But even though it's not fatal, can this mistake be leveraged during the trial, either to cast doubt or to add weight to my claims that a different officer wrote the ticket/notes?
Hi all...I'm hoping I can get some clarification on a couple of questions I haven't been able to research myself.
In September I got a ticket for going 79 in a 50 zone at a speed trap.
I still need to request disclosure as I was waiting for my notice of trial which came in December and I was busy with the holidays in December so I'm just getting to it now - I'll send it tomorrow and court date is in February although I need to get the date moved because I'm sure the officer will attend (he was pulling over 3-4 people every 5 minutes so probably issued a lot of tickets that are all scheduled for this day). Based on some comments he made though, I very much doubt he will attend a rescheduled trial if I'm the only one. Also, he's a local cop in a scuzzy city with real crime, not an OPP officer, and I was pulled over during a back to school blitz (not near a school though! which the officer himself said) so I don't think speed enforcement is what he usually does/cares about.
Anyway, I'm still going to prepare on the off chance he does show up to a rescheduled trial. I have two questions though as I start preparing my defense.
First, context. The officer who was using the RADAR/LIDAR (not sure which) was the one who approached me when I pulled over and the one who handed me my ticket. There were three police vehicles parked on the side street by where they were doing the enforcement. One was a completely unmarked vehicle, but parked the wrong way at the VERY end of the street (visible from the top of the hill I was coming over). This vehicle was empty. There were two other cruisers who each had at least one officer in them (in the driver's seats). There might have been passengers too but I couldn't see from where I was. So at least three officers were working the trap. The officer who was using the RADAR took my license/registration/insurance to one of the other officers, spoke a moment, then went back to pulling people over. I counted 4 warnings given to other drivers in the 5-8 minutes I was waiting before the officer went back to the cruiser, received the ticket, and brought it to me. He explained it was reduced to 65 because I have a clean record and made some other comments about how they're just trying to get people to slow down because it's back to school and he doesn't want to penalize people etc. The ticket is entirely typed, even the signature is typed. It was certainly written by one of the other officers. Also, after the officer and I concluded our little chat I was able to pull forward, do a very precise by the book 3-point turn, and turn back onto the original street I'd been traveling within 30 seconds. I had to do a wide right turn because the officer was already back on the street, radar at eye level, and waiting for cars to show up over the hill.
So the first question I have about this is, it's clear that any notes that were written weren't written by the officer who gave me the ticket and used the RADAR - they must have been written by one of the other officers. Provided the officer admits this/it gets proven in a trial, what effect would this have on the validity of the officer's testimony? If he's testifying based on notes written by another officer, and that officer wrote the notes based on what the first officer originally told him, does that count as hearsay? Is there any other way I can use this? Is this a tack I should pursue?
The second question is, I know that it is always helpful to the officer's case if they establish that they visually identified a speeder, before they start pacing or using a speed measuring device. But is it required for them to do so? There is absolutely no way the officer was visually identifying the speeders before using the RADAR - he was just using the RADAR on every car as it crested the hill. In my case, he was walking out into the middle of the street and flagging me down before I was even heading downhill (so under a second from when he could have seen me) and like I said, he was holding the RADAR at eye level pointed at the top of the hill when I was leaving, too. Is this something I can use?
One last bonus question. It's not a fatal error, but on the ticket beside my birthday there are three checkboxes. Motor vehicle involved (N), Collision involved (Y), and Witnesses (Y). The Collision involved box is checked (and the other two are blank). There was no collision. I presume the witnesses box was supposed to be checked. There weren't because the other officers in the cruisers weren't visible from the top of the hill, but that's not really relevant unless they want to testify. But even though it's not fatal, can this mistake be leveraged during the trial, either to cast doubt or to add weight to my claims that a different officer wrote the ticket/notes?
They get paid to show up. It's an ordinary work day and they don't get to choose to simply not show up. I'd just expect them to show up and go from there. None. If there are two or more officers involved, they'll both show up. I'd wait for the disclosure first though before making any assumptions. If you're asking whether or not they have to somehow estimate speed by, lets say, using some kind of markers (eg. light posts) to determine your speed prior to using a radar device, then the answer would be no. It's not a fatal error. Sure, if you'd like to squeeze the mistake into your trial to prove some kind of point, you're free to do so. In my opinion, it's probably not relevant enough to even bother mentioning.
Malcolm87 wrote:
Also, he's a local cop in a scuzzy city with real crime, not an OPP officer, and I was pulled over during a back to school blitz (not near a school though! which the officer himself said) so I don't think speed enforcement is what he usually does/cares about.
They get paid to show up. It's an ordinary work day and they don't get to choose to simply not show up. I'd just expect them to show up and go from there.
Malcolm87 wrote:
So the first question I have about this is, it's clear that any notes that were written weren't written by the officer who gave me the ticket and used the RADAR - they must have been written by one of the other officers. Provided the officer admits this/it gets proven in a trial, what effect would this have on the validity of the officer's testimony?
None. If there are two or more officers involved, they'll both show up. I'd wait for the disclosure first though before making any assumptions.
Malcolm87 wrote:
The second question is, I know that it is always helpful to the officer's case if they establish that they visually identified a speeder, before they start pacing or using a speed measuring device. But is it required for them to do so? There is absolutely no way the officer was visually identifying the speeders before using the RADAR - he was just using the RADAR on every car as it crested the hill. In my case, he was walking out into the middle of the street and flagging me down before I was even heading downhill (so under a second from when he could have seen me) and like I said, he was holding the RADAR at eye level pointed at the top of the hill when I was leaving, too. Is this something I can use?
If you're asking whether or not they have to somehow estimate speed by, lets say, using some kind of markers (eg. light posts) to determine your speed prior to using a radar device, then the answer would be no.
Malcolm87 wrote:
One last bonus question. It's not a fatal error, but on the ticket beside my birthday there are three checkboxes. Motor vehicle involved (N), Collision involved (Y), and Witnesses (Y). The Collision involved box is checked (and the other two are blank). There was no collision. I presume the witnesses box was supposed to be checked. There weren't because the other officers in the cruisers weren't visible from the top of the hill, but that's not really relevant unless they want to testify. But even though it's not fatal, can this mistake be leveraged during the trial, either to cast doubt or to add weight to my claims that a different officer wrote the ticket/notes?
It's not a fatal error. Sure, if you'd like to squeeze the mistake into your trial to prove some kind of point, you're free to do so. In my opinion, it's probably not relevant enough to even bother mentioning.
When you request disclosure make sure you ask for: -Notes of all officers involved. -Make, model and serial number of speed measuring device used. -A copy of the entire manual for this speed measuring device. I require the full manual in order to properly prepare and cross-examine the officer on their knowledge, understanding, training and use of the device, as well as all other information about the device, including (but not limited to) installation, display unit, remote control, communication systems, operatiing the unit, modes and settings, performance, how radar works, interference, testing, care, cleaning, storage, specifications, legal requirements, and all other sections of the manual. If two officers are involved then they must both show up at court. However the officer that used radar/laser needs to testify of speed and the officer that gave you the ticket needs to testify to your identity and service of ticket, but in this case this is all the same officer. If you only gets noted from one officer and only this one officer shows up (call him Officer A), the issue you might be able to go after on cross-examination is how the other officer (call him Officer B) in the car was able to electronically sign the ticket with Officer A's name on it. If the ticket has Officer's B name on it, then the issue you have is that Officer B must also be there but Officer B did not serve the ticket on you but instead gave it to Officer A (improper service). And of course the issue with notes could be in question... electronic notes are acceptable but if Officer B was logged into terminal under Officer A's name then that is definitley an issue. But anyways you won't know all this until you get disclosure. If the manual for the radar/laser says they have to "visually estimate speed" before activating it, then yes this is something you can use. However it is not a requirement and was removed from some manuals a while ago, so probably not something you can use. You could question officer on training first though and ask if estimating speed was something he was trained to do, and then go down the road of getting him to admit he did not do it so therefore he was not using device properly as he was trained to do. What the officer puts in those checkboxes on the tickey is pretty much irrelevent and is not a fatal error and this won't help you at all. Did you check that the charge is correct (65 in a 50 and section 128 of HTA)? Did you check that the set fine and total paybale are correct?
When you request disclosure make sure you ask for:
-Notes of all officers involved.
-Make, model and serial number of speed measuring device used.
-A copy of the entire manual for this speed measuring device. I require the full manual in order to properly prepare and cross-examine the officer on their knowledge, understanding, training and use of the device, as well as all other information about the device, including (but not limited to) installation, display unit, remote control, communication systems, operatiing the unit, modes and settings, performance, how radar works, interference, testing, care, cleaning, storage, specifications, legal requirements, and all other sections of the manual.
If two officers are involved then they must both show up at court. However the officer that used radar/laser needs to testify of speed and the officer that gave you the ticket needs to testify to your identity and service of ticket, but in this case this is all the same officer. If you only gets noted from one officer and only this one officer shows up (call him Officer A), the issue you might be able to go after on cross-examination is how the other officer (call him Officer B) in the car was able to electronically sign the ticket with Officer A's name on it. If the ticket has Officer's B name on it, then the issue you have is that Officer B must also be there but Officer B did not serve the ticket on you but instead gave it to Officer A (improper service). And of course the issue with notes could be in question... electronic notes are acceptable but if Officer B was logged into terminal under Officer A's name then that is definitley an issue. But anyways you won't know all this until you get disclosure.
If the manual for the radar/laser says they have to "visually estimate speed" before activating it, then yes this is something you can use. However it is not a requirement and was removed from some manuals a while ago, so probably not something you can use. You could question officer on training first though and ask if estimating speed was something he was trained to do, and then go down the road of getting him to admit he did not do it so therefore he was not using device properly as he was trained to do.
What the officer puts in those checkboxes on the tickey is pretty much irrelevent and is not a fatal error and this won't help you at all.
Did you check that the charge is correct (65 in a 50 and section 128 of HTA)?
Did you check that the set fine and total paybale are correct?
They don't have to visually estimate the speed, that has been gone for quite a while. The officer must be able to say the vehicle appeared to be traveling at a rate of speed which was higher than the posted speed limit (if actually posted), or just higher than the speed limit if not posted. You can ask for the whole manual in disclosure but you won't get it. You will only get the testing procedures. You will be able to attend the police office to read the whole manual if you wish, but they will not photocopy it entirely.
They don't have to visually estimate the speed, that has been gone for quite a while. The officer must be able to say the vehicle appeared to be traveling at a rate of speed which was higher than the posted speed limit (if actually posted), or just higher than the speed limit if not posted. You can ask for the whole manual in disclosure but you won't get it. You will only get the testing procedures. You will be able to attend the police office to read the whole manual if you wish, but they will not photocopy it entirely.
To clarify, I don't believe it was possible for the officer to have been establishing that vehicles were speeding prior to clocking them. He was radar'ing everyone as soon as they were visible coming over the hill (which was pretty steep). Jsherk, can you clarify/elaborate on what the electronic terminal is/how it works/whay are the rules surrounding it? Or what is the technical name of it and I can try to search it myself. Thanks. PS. I requested many sections of the manual and attached a second page with rationale for why each section is necessary. When not provided I will ask for a stay based on improper disclosure. If declined I will ask for an adjournment pending a FOI for the whole manual.
To clarify, I don't believe it was possible for the officer to have been establishing that vehicles were speeding prior to clocking them. He was radar'ing everyone as soon as they were visible coming over the hill (which was pretty steep).
Jsherk, can you clarify/elaborate on what the electronic terminal is/how it works/whay are the rules surrounding it? Or what is the technical name of it and I can try to search it myself. Thanks.
PS. I requested many sections of the manual and attached a second page with rationale for why each section is necessary. When not provided I will ask for a stay based on improper disclosure. If declined I will ask for an adjournment pending a FOI for the whole manual.
Most police have some kind of "computer" in their car. If they are issuing an electronic ticket then my understanding is that there would be some kind of printer attached to this computer in their vehicle. I do not know anything more really than that. With regards to notes, the courts have allowed electronic signatures on electronic tickets and have also allowed electronic notes recorded along with those tickets. My understanding (I am not 100% clear how this all works) would be that the officer would have to log in to the terminal and then those notes are recorded under his name and the ticket is signed by his name. Can one officer log in and then print a ticket with another officers name on it? I do not know. I have never dealt with an electronic ticket myself so I am only sharing what I have read and how I think it works.
Most police have some kind of "computer" in their car. If they are issuing an electronic ticket then my understanding is that there would be some kind of printer attached to this computer in their vehicle. I do not know anything more really than that.
With regards to notes, the courts have allowed electronic signatures on electronic tickets and have also allowed electronic notes recorded along with those tickets. My understanding (I am not 100% clear how this all works) would be that the officer would have to log in to the terminal and then those notes are recorded under his name and the ticket is signed by his name.
Can one officer log in and then print a ticket with another officers name on it? I do not know.
I have never dealt with an electronic ticket myself so I am only sharing what I have read and how I think it works.
You're still going under a lot of assumptions without disclosure. The fact that the officer had the radar/lidar pointed at traffic doesn't mean the device was on. If it was Lidar, the officer may have been using the optical sight to view the vehicles prior to activating it.
You're still going under a lot of assumptions without disclosure. The fact that the officer had the radar/lidar pointed at traffic doesn't mean the device was on. If it was Lidar, the officer may have been using the optical sight to view the vehicles prior to activating it.
Agreed...courts have accepted an experienced officers abiltiy to quickly determine if a motor vehicle was speeding, even if they just popped up over a hill...That optical sight has 8X magnification
Agreed...courts have accepted an experienced officers abiltiy to quickly determine if a motor vehicle was speeding, even if they just popped up over a hill...That optical sight has 8X magnification
I got a speeding ticket in a speed trap for 66km/h in a 50km zone, which i do not beleive i was going that speed. I was in the right lane, and there was another vehicle in the left lane, and the officer pulled both of us over. When the officer approached my vehicle and asked for my licence and registration he mentioned that he clocked me at 66km/h and the other vehicle to my left at 72km/h. I…
I was hit while driving. It was the other guy's fault and he was charged with careless driving.
I have just received a "summons to witness". The summons threatens all sorts of dire consequences if I don't show up to court.
The problem is that I don't want to show up to court. Besides being difficult for me, the other driver is an acquaintance, and I would rather not see him get into trouble. His…
I got a ticket for not fully stop at a stop sign. I file a NOTICE OF INTENTION TO APPEAR. I requested full disclosure, I got no answer, I fax another request, no response. I went to the Persecutor office; they gave me the officer note but no video. On trial date the persecutor ask for adjournment until they get video disclosure
The second court date no video disclosure, I asked the…
Today I received a speeding infraction on shoreham drive near York University. A speed trap had been setup.
The infraction is 63 in a 40 as the officer stated it was a school zone. Also the insurance card that was in the glove box (parents car) was expired so a further infraction was issued. The officer stated that since I was a student he would cut me a break if I…
I've been stopped and fined for driving holding a communication device.
The first thing the officer said was "you were texting". I was actually in a conversation in a hands free mode (speakerphone):
"Hands-free mode allowed
(3) Despite subsections (1) and (2), a person may drive a motor vehicle on a highway while using a device described in those subsections in hands-free mode. 2009, c. 4, s. 2."
What is the requirement for stopping when a school bus is traveling down the roadway, initiates the flashing red lights while still moving but has not yet stopped? If a motorist is traveling through an intersection (through the free-flow approach, minor-street stop controlled) and an oncoming school bus initiates the lights while approaching the intersection, but is still moving and has not come…
Hi, I have a court date Oct. 21,08 for parking in the fire route of my friends building. How can i get this $100 fine reduced or eliminated? only argument i really have is that visitor parking was full and i went around a few times. I wasn't there for long either.
+
I just got a ticket for going right on red fail to stop(114[18])$180. No pedestrians were in the way. I'm not a unsafe driver, so I'm…
Hey everyone, sorry if this is the wrong section for this (i'm a new user )
Well today as I was coming home from class, I was travelling at about 116-118 and police officer was driving in the express holding up traffic and I didn't really see him. So as I go to pass in the middle lane we started going down a slight hill (before the service centre on townline exit); I didn't want to apply my…
I am new to the forum and am hoping for some guidance from forum members. Having recently been charged with Stunt Driving (speeding 157 in 100 zone on Hwy 407) and received a summons (for about a month from now), I had the following questions that I would be gracious for some feedback:
a) what is the actual process for next steps? My understanding is that when I appear at the summons, it is not a…
I currently drive a honda civic, with tinted windows. It is 35 % in the front and 20% in the back. however, i got a ticket due to a police officer said the front tints were to dark and he could not see me (at 4 pm, broad day light). Is this ticket unnecessary? and what is the legal limits?
The ticket said: Colour coating obscuring interior
I got a ticket for obstruct plate on morning of Feb 4 2009. I was driving in front of a police officer who was wearing sun glasses. He pulled me over and insisted he cannot see my plate but it was just some dirt or salt. Is it possible for me to fight the ticket? Also I went on york.ca to check the ticket but it says that the offence not found. It has been over 10 days since i got the ticket so I…
Was charged with not stopping for stop sign that I believe I stopped. I have searched the section number on the Internet and find no results for that charge. I have found HTA 136 1 A and HTA 136 1 B so what is HTA 136 1 9?
Is anybody interested in CVSA or commercial motor vehicle stuff? This was my specialty in policing. I can write some articles about weights, measures, documents, etc, if there's an audience for it.
We have a vehicle which needs to go to a repair shop before it can be licensed. The shop is 10km away. Can a licensed vehicle tow it to the shop? We are hoping to avoid paying for a lift truck to transport it.
Along the same lines, would the laws be different if a farm tractor or other slow moving vehicle were doing the towing? This is a rural property.
I had a perfect driving record. I am in the process of applying for a really good job that takes about year to go thru the application process. One of the conditions is to have a perfect driving record - spotless.
I got a ticket for "operate motor vehicle, no valid tag". The plate was expired. I was driving someone else's vehicle as a favour to them.
Both tickets can be dropped by prosecutor, because I got these tickets before and they just dropped it, when I showed a picture that I put my plate back on and I got the insurance slip.
I set a court date to fight the tickets, because I did not have time to meet with prosecutor. I…
Driving on a 80km/hr highway the car ahead hits the brakes and slows to 55, l slow down right behind him no reason to slow down traffic was moving between 80 and 90. I notice the driver is on the phone and looking through papers on the passenger seat. He begins to start to go a opp officer drives by doing 80 plus in oncoming lane turns around and says l was following to close. Told him what was…
I have recently gone to court for a speeding ticket issued by an OPP officer. As it stood, the officer forgot to sign the ticket. So at my trial, before I made a plea, I pointed this out to the justice of the peace and asked that the ticket be quashed. I was asked to produce my copy of the ticket, which I gave and the JOP then agreed with me and dismissed the case. Before he did so, the…
found this resource online, wanted to ask a few questions
I have my trial today, march 3rd in TOronto East
I got a speeding ticket APril 6th 2009 at 1:12am East bound on the BLoor Viaduct, 74 in a 50, officer was using Lidar and ran out in the middle of the street to stop me
the trial date is today.
I already have filed for an 11b a few weeks back by serving the prosecutor and mailing the…
Ok story starts as this. I admit, I wasn't the smartest!!! lol
I was helping people move on saturday, had a few drinks. Went out for a night dinner with the wife for date night, had a few more drinks at dinner... but nothing extreme. Got home felt tired and we had people coming over so I downed a Red Bull, first stupid mistake, then after they left i went to the bathroom and fainted, was…
Here's the situation. I entered the 401 heading east. After a minute or two I was on the left lane a few car-lengths behind a marked cruiser. He was driving annoyingly slow in the left lane, maybe 110km/h, even if that. (I saw something in the HTA that slower traffic must keep right according to the current flow.) That's why I thought it was 'safe' to pass him. After about 20 or so seconds…
So I have an vehicle which I don't drive over the winter. My birthday is in November. So, to save some cash flow before Christmas, in November 2018 I chose not to buy a sticker, knowing full well that when spring came I would still need to pay the $120 for the period November 2018 - November 2019.
Fast forward to last week, now we finally have some decent weather, I go to the ServiceOntario…
Good morning drivers, law enforcement, and traffic enthusiasts,
I recently received a ticket for "FAIL TO YIELD TO PEDESTRIAN." I was stopped at a red light in the left lane, signalling to turn left. The light turned green and as I pulled into the intersection, a pedestrian on the left crosswalk began crossing in the opposite direction. As I approached the crosswalk to complete the left turn, the…
)
