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Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:35 pm 
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I am new to this board I do have a few questions and hopefully can receive some advice for my trial tomorrow.

Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - Charged with Speeding 65km/h in a 50km/h zone - reduced from 80km/h
Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - Notice of Trial date issued for Friday, May 19th, 2017 1:30pm
Thursday, February 16, 2017 - Request for Disclosure dropped off at the Prosecutors office
Tuesday, May 2nd, 2017 - Called Prosecutors office for 2nd request for disclosure, first they told me that they did not have a request for disclosure, I let her know I have a copy and I can send it to her but it is stamped as received by the prosecutors office. She looked further then came back and said the following -

"Ok I found everything, I know why it wasn't put in because it's a 5250 charge, its a speeding, and um, so 5250 tells me that you were probably doing a higher rate of speed and they give me a break and dropped it to 15 over which is no points. So You've chose to challenge it so we are going to be requesting that it go back up to the original speed, which I am not sure what that was I would have to look at the notes to see that, but I will certainly put in for it today for you, hopefully it will be put in before your date and we will see what happens."

I did record this conversation for purpose of having record of what I was told, is this something that I will need to submit to the court?

Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 - I recieved a phone call from the prosecutors office letting me know that my Disclosure & DVD were ready for pick up - I have this also recorded will I need to submit it to the court?
Thursday, May 18th, 2017 - I picked up my Disclosure

I found the Disclosure material to be Deficient so I am going to drop off a letter requesting the following information:

1. Officer's copy of the ticket, both sides;
2. Confirmation that the Radar units make, model, and serial number are the following: Genesis Handheld Directional Serial# GHD-02662, and could you please
provide its owner's manual;
3. The officer's training record specific to the said radar unit;
4. The calibration record, service record and repair history of the said radar unit;
5. The records of any calibration equipment such as tuning forks;
6. The officer's notes and log on the alleged offence day, including all tickets he/he had written on that day, and any document the Crown may rely on at trial.
7. The DVD of video of the Date & time of offence: Wednesday, December 28, 2016 22:53pm

So I got #1 & #3-#6 from another post.
#2 I slightly adjusted because it seems to have the info of the make, model & Serial number but I don't really know about Radar Units, and I have looked online for the owners manual however I cannot find a copy and cannot confirm it is the correct owners manual.

I added #7 because the video I received is From Wednesday, December 28, 2016pm begins at 22:56pm however the exact time of the offence is stated as 22:53pm
Given this info on the video alone is this something to have my charges dismissed as they cannot place me there at the time of the offence? Keep in mind they do state that the video did not capture the offence, but it does have the officer pulling me over at 22:56pm which is long after the offence time.
I also notice in the video you cannot read my licence plate at all, is this something that can help my case?

Next can I request for adjournment given I don't feel I have received sufficient information from the disclosure and/or that I received it only a few days before the Court date? If so how do I do this? If not what can I do?

The Radar Gun has a before test time but not an after test time, can I use this in my advantage? If so what evidence will I need?

OK so I really hope someone will be able to respond to me quick as I am going in tomorrow!! YIKES!
Also what Law info should I have printed off for tomorrow? Where would I find this info???

Thank you so much! :)


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Hi so I'm at the courthouse thinking I should remove #7 as that may open up the avenue for them to correct the ticket. If I go to trial tomorrow could I ask the justice ask the justice to examine the “Certificate of Offence” prior to entering a plea to the charge, to ensure that it is “Proper on it’s face” ? If the justice ensures its proper on its face could i then proceed with a defence that proves i was not in that area at the given time and place? Based on facts of how far my car can drive in 4mins at 2 different rates of speed and where that would place me at the time on the ticket?


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1722
Where is the trial?

First of all note that the can NOT raise the speed back up to the original rate until the trial starts AND the officer has testified that you were going the higher speed (it should be in the notes what your original speed was officer clocked you at). If you lose the trial, then they will amend it back up to the whatever the higher speed that the officer testified.

Since your disclosure was not ready until yesterday, you can definitely request an adjournment as you have not had time to review it fully and not had time to prepare your defense. You will also want to tell the JP that there are some items that were missing and then you can present your arguments to try and get them.

1. You do not want the officers copy of the ticket... it is irrelevent and useless. You want to see the Certificate of Offence that the officer filed with the court as this is the one that needs to be stamped revceived/filed by the clerk within seven days of the offence date. You can go see the clerk in the courtroom before the trial starts and ask to see it and them to show you the date stamp.
2. If that is the information in the officers notes then that is all the confirmation they will give you. As far as the manual is concerned, you most likely will not get that. As of January this year the courts ruled that the prosecution does not have to give you the manual. See Region of York v. McGuigan, 2017 ONSC 436 http://canlii.ca/t/gx1vj
3. You will not get this either. All the officer has to do is say they are a qualified operator and therefore the courts think it must be true.
4. You will not get this either as there are no requirements in Ontario for any radar/lidar/speedometers to ever be calibrated and therefore there are no records.
5. Tuning forks are not required in Ontario. All the officer has to do is they believe the unit was working and therefore the courts think it must be true.
6. You definitely should have gotten a copy of the officers notes from that day as they relate to YOUR specific case only. You will not get any other notes as they do not relate to your case.
7. The time on the ticket only needs to be close (can be off as much as a day), so a few minutes difference will not get your case thrown out. They will either just amend the time on the ticket to match or they will just blow it off and not even give it a second thought.

After several years of self-representing and learning the ropes with regards to speeding, I have come to the conclusion that the only way to beat a speeding ticket is to have your own expert witness take the stand to counter the officers testimony that they are "qualified" and the unit was "working properly". I am training myself up to be able to do this... coming soon!

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:32 pm
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jsherk wrote:
Where is the trial?

First of all note that the can NOT raise the speed back up to the original rate until the trial starts AND the officer has testified that you were going the higher speed (it should be in the notes what your original speed was officer clocked you at). If you lose the trial, then they will amend it back up to the whatever the higher speed that the officer testified.

Since your disclosure was not ready until yesterday, you can definitely request an adjournment as you have not had time to review it fully and not had time to prepare your defense. You will also want to tell the JP that there are some items that were missing and then you can present your arguments to try and get them.

1. You do not want the officers copy of the ticket... it is irrelevent and useless. You want to see the Certificate of Offence that the officer filed with the court as this is the one that needs to be stamped revceived/filed by the clerk within seven days of the offence date. You can go see the clerk in the courtroom before the trial starts and ask to see it and them to show you the date stamp.
2. If that is the information in the officers notes then that is all the confirmation they will give you. As far as the manual is concerned, you most likely will not get that. As of January this year the courts ruled that the prosecution does not have to give you the manual. See Region of York v. McGuigan, 2017 ONSC 436 http://canlii.ca/t/gx1vj
3. You will not get this either. All the officer has to do is say they are a qualified operator and therefore the courts think it must be true.
4. You will not get this either as there are no requirements in Ontario for any radar/lidar/speedometers to ever be calibrated and therefore there are no records.
5. Tuning forks are not required in Ontario. All the officer has to do is they believe the unit was working and therefore the courts think it must be true.
6. You definitely should have gotten a copy of the officers notes from that day as they relate to YOUR specific case only. You will not get any other notes as they do not relate to your case.
7. The time on the ticket only needs to be close (can be off as much as a day), so a few minutes difference will not get your case thrown out. They will either just amend the time on the ticket to match or they will just blow it off and not even give it a second thought.

After several years of self-representing and learning the ropes with regards to speeding, I have come to the conclusion that the only way to beat a speeding ticket is to have your own expert witness take the stand to counter the officers testimony that they are "qualified" and the unit was "working properly". I am training myself up to be able to do this... coming soon!


Thank you for the info Jserk! I just received the same notification from the prosecutor about the calibration record and other things related to the device.

The case law you posted is interesting, in paragraph 9 it mentions:

In 2010, the manufacturer changed the testing portion of the manual by removing the tracking history and adding that the operator self-test must be completed by the officer prior to enforcement and at the conclusion of the officer’s tour of duty if enforcement action was taken.

What exactly does 'prior to enforcement' mean? Is it before the officer starts their shift or before they begin using the device?

Reason I'm curious is because I'm trying to find what the exact law/rule is for when these devices should be tested - in my ticket my officer tested the device about 8 hours before my citation. If they must test it before the act, then I feel I may have a strong case here.


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:44 am
Posts: 1029
arzon wrote:
What exactly does 'prior to enforcement' mean? Is it before the officer starts their shift or before they begin using the device?


They'll test it at the start of their shift. It's not uncommon to have a couple hours between a test and when you were pulled over.


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1722
Basically they are supposed to test it at the beginning of their shift and at the end of their shift. But it could be they tested it just before your ticket and just after your ticket as well.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 10:29 am
Posts: 4
Hey just wanted to update everyone, after all the stress yesterday I went to speak with a traffic ticket person before court they advised to request an adjournment so I can retain legal representation, I went to court and the JP was not there so my ticket was WITHDRAWN!! Woohoo! Walked out with my almost 2 year old cheering down the hall way!! lol If I get a ticket again I will do the same process I may end up retaining a lawyer if I get to a point that I think I can't handle it but in the end I saved the cost of a lawyer when I did all this leg work myself!


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1722
The JP was not there? That seems strange that they would withdraw and not reschedule. Or do you mean the officer was not there?

Anyways congratulations on the win!

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 10:29 am
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JP was not there....i don't think the officer was there either....they said because my charge was minor even though it was a reduced speed they would withdraw it....the lady behind me had my original speed as her full ticket and she said she wanted the points gone so they rescheduled.


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Re: Speeding ticket Trial Tomorrow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:00 pm
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Very strange! JP was not there. Usually they withdraw if the officer is not present. But Congratulations!


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