Hello everyone, I got a ticket for going 20 km/h over 50 in Toronto around March of last year and received my court summons for a hearing in February 2012 approx. 3 weeks ago. Mailed out a request for disclosure a week after that. It's now been 2 and a 1/2 weeks since the request and I was wondering when would be an appropriate time to file another request? I didn't put any kind of diary date on the first request, so I'm wondering if that's letting the prosecutor stall.... Would appreciate any advice!
Hello everyone,
I got a ticket for going 20 km/h over 50 in Toronto around March of last year and received my court summons for a hearing in February 2012 approx. 3 weeks ago. Mailed out a request for disclosure a week after that. It's now been 2 and a 1/2 weeks since the request and I was wondering when would be an appropriate time to file another request? I didn't put any kind of diary date on the first request, so I'm wondering if that's letting the prosecutor stall....
I would give it another 2 weeks before mailing out another request. You may want to make sure that your request includes specific useful information pertaining to your case, and you may want to use registered mail. Btw, your hearing in February isn't a trial. If you haven't yet received a Notice of Trial in the mail, then your hearing in February is probably a First Attendance meeting.
I would give it another 2 weeks before mailing out another request.
You may want to make sure that your request includes specific useful information pertaining to your case, and you may want to use registered mail.
Btw, your hearing in February isn't a trial. If you haven't yet received a Notice of Trial in the mail, then your hearing in February is probably a First Attendance meeting.
So, update on this... I received a letter from the court prosecutor to pick up my disclosure package. Regarding this, would it be recommended that I open up the package there to make sure all the documents I asked for in my request were given to me? If I do find something missing and ask for a reason, I fear I wouldn't have this reason in writing. But if I sign for the package without looking through the contents, would it look like I accept what they have given me? Thanks in advance for any advice!
So, update on this...
I received a letter from the court prosecutor to pick up my disclosure package. Regarding this, would it be recommended that I open up the package there to make sure all the documents I asked for in my request were given to me? If I do find something missing and ask for a reason, I fear I wouldn't have this reason in writing. But if I sign for the package without looking through the contents, would it look like I accept what they have given me?
There's normally not a lot of strategy to this. You pick up the package, you check it out, if there's something missing, you submit a followup disclosure request in writing shortly after. You keep repeating this process until you get everything you want or until you get to court and then you put it on the record, along with all of your efforts.
There's normally not a lot of strategy to this. You pick up the package, you check it out, if there's something missing, you submit a followup disclosure request in writing shortly after. You keep repeating this process until you get everything you want or until you get to court and then you put it on the record, along with all of your efforts.
Hi Vinny, I will definitely look at filing an 11B, as I didn't realize that it was at least 11 months (thought it would have to be at least a year). Anyways, a few days ago, I picked up my disclosure package and noticed a few things which seemed unclear. As part of my request, I had asked for an explanation of short forms which the officer may have written in his notes, as well as the operating manual for the laser device. From what I received, I have not received any explanation of the short forms (I guess this will go on my second request) and also got a copy of the testing record for the laser device. On the bottom of this record, there appears to be a training record for the officer but it is really badly photocopied and smudged to the point of being unreadable (basically a big block of black splotches). I also noticed that this record doesn't seem to have any date written on it. Would that training record have a date? Or is this a potential fatal error? Thanks again for all the advice everyone, this has been really educational and helpful for me!
Hi Vinny, I will definitely look at filing an 11B, as I didn't realize that it was at least 11 months (thought it would have to be at least a year).
Anyways, a few days ago, I picked up my disclosure package and noticed a few things which seemed unclear. As part of my request, I had asked for an explanation of short forms which the officer may have written in his notes, as well as the operating manual for the laser device. From what I received, I have not received any explanation of the short forms (I guess this will go on my second request) and also got a copy of the testing record for the laser device. On the bottom of this record, there appears to be a training record for the officer but it is really badly photocopied and smudged to the point of being unreadable (basically a big block of black splotches). I also noticed that this record doesn't seem to have any date written on it. Would that training record have a date? Or is this a potential fatal error?
Thanks again for all the advice everyone, this has been really educational and helpful for me!
It used to be 1 year for an 11b, now it's closer to 9 months. See this topic here: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic3881.html As for the training certificate, I'd suspect it should have a date on it, but there is no requirement to provide any documentation. Case law has said it's not something required in disclosure, and any concerns over training can be brought up at trial.
As for the training certificate, I'd suspect it should have a date on it, but there is no requirement to provide any documentation. Case law has said it's not something required in disclosure, and any concerns over training can be brought up at trial.
Update on the situation: Well, I had sent in another request for disclosure in late November but didn't receive any notice from the prosecutor's office regarding this, so I sent another follow up to them to request for the items that were missing, as described in my last post above. From the evidence I have so far, I'm not sure if I am able to cast any reasonable doubt over the situation but I'm also turning to filing an 11B. My question though, is reading the TicketCombat website, I never saw the advice to send a letter to the prosecutor to request a trial. In not sending that, would that make it more difficult for me to be granted a stay? Also, I never requested any information on the laser gun instruction manual in any of my three disclosure requests, should I be asking for those or does it matter/too late? Thanks!
Update on the situation:
Well, I had sent in another request for disclosure in late November but didn't receive any notice from the prosecutor's office regarding this, so I sent another follow up to them to request for the items that were missing, as described in my last post above. From the evidence I have so far, I'm not sure if I am able to cast any reasonable doubt over the situation but I'm also turning to filing an 11B. My question though, is reading the TicketCombat website, I never saw the advice to send a letter to the prosecutor to request a trial. In not sending that, would that make it more difficult for me to be granted a stay? Also, I never requested any information on the laser gun instruction manual in any of my three disclosure requests, should I be asking for those or does it matter/too late?
Ok, another update: I have received a response to my third disclosure request, in which I stated that on the evidence they give, I would like an explanation of the short forms in the officer's notes and if this wasn't provided, a reason for why not. In short, they failed to provide that and I still have slightly illegible notes here...would this be a case of improper disclosure if they did not explain why they didn't fill that part of my request and could I argue that with an 11B? Here are the notes, I was wondering if anyone could help decipher what it means....
Ok, another update:
I have received a response to my third disclosure request, in which I stated that on the evidence they give, I would like an explanation of the short forms in the officer's notes and if this wasn't provided, a reason for why not. In short, they failed to provide that and I still have slightly illegible notes here...would this be a case of improper disclosure if they did not explain why they didn't fill that part of my request and could I argue that with an 11B? Here are the notes, I was wondering if anyone could help decipher what it means....
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From what I see, the notes say -- Silver, 4 door, (next word is cut off on your attachment, it would be the make...looks like Toyota) Solo occupant (no passenger) (not sure what O/A is)...Lead vehicle, curb lane 71.7 (likely the speed you were clocked at) 106.44 (possibly the fine or could be your speed) 3180 0049B could be part of the offence notice number O/C & Cold is overcast and cold Not sure what R Dxx TW is, unless it means Really Dry 50 metres South Gailgrove This is pretty much the info the officer would need during the trial. Hope this helps.
From what I see, the notes say --
Silver, 4 door, (next word is cut off on your attachment, it would be the make...looks like Toyota)
Solo occupant (no passenger)
(not sure what O/A is)...Lead vehicle, curb lane
71.7 (likely the speed you were clocked at)
106.44 (possibly the fine or could be your speed)
3180 0049B could be part of the offence notice number
O/C & Cold is overcast and cold
Not sure what R Dxx TW is, unless it means Really Dry
50 metres South Gailgrove
This is pretty much the info the officer would need during the trial.
Hi Sona, thanks for that! My question now revolves around a specific request in my disclosure where I asked the officer to provide an explanation of the short forms used in his notes and if these were not available, I would like to receive an explanation regarding why they weren't available. This was not provided and I have filed three disclosure requests so far (two have been received by the prosecutor and responded to). As such, would this be grounds to argue for improper disclosure or as institutional delay for an 11B (it will have been 11 months and 14 days since the offence and as noted in Stanton's post above, City of Toronto v. Andrade case showed that 11 and 28 and 11 and 4 were suitable for 11B to be accepted)?
Sona wrote:
From what I see, the notes say --
Silver, 4 door, (next word is cut off on your attachment, it would be the make...looks like Toyota)
Solo occupant (no passenger)
(not sure what O/A is)...Lead vehicle, curb lane
71.7 (likely the speed you were clocked at)
106.44 (possibly the fine or could be your speed)
3180 0049B could be part of the offence notice number
O/C & Cold is overcast and cold
Not sure what R Dxx TW is, unless it means Really Dry
50 metres South Gailgrove
This is pretty much the info the officer would need during the trial.
Hope this helps.
Hi Sona, thanks for that! My question now revolves around a specific request in my disclosure where I asked the officer to provide an explanation of the short forms used in his notes and if these were not available, I would like to receive an explanation regarding why they weren't available. This was not provided and I have filed three disclosure requests so far (two have been received by the prosecutor and responded to). As such, would this be grounds to argue for improper disclosure or as institutional delay for an 11B (it will have been 11 months and 14 days since the offence and as noted in Stanton's post above, City of Toronto v. Andrade case showed that 11 and 28 and 11 and 4 were suitable for 11B to be accepted)?
My personal view is that it doesnt hurt to file an 11B and try to get a stay before entering a plea for your ticket. You lose nothing. That said, a prosecutor told me last week that she would fight an 11B unless it was about 14 months delay. I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now. However, to me, the matter isnt closed. I would argue the 11B in court with the help of case law. I am new to this site, hopefully, others will add to this.
My personal view is that it doesnt hurt to file an 11B and try to get a stay before entering a plea for your ticket. You lose nothing. That said, a prosecutor told me last week that she would fight an 11B unless it was about 14 months delay. I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now. However, to me, the matter isnt closed. I would argue the 11B in court with the help of case law. I am new to this site, hopefully, others will add to this.
Hi everyone, Just an update on the situation: I did end up filing an 11B two weeks ago and went through all the hurdles of getting things signed and stamped. When I pressed both the court clerks and the prosecutor's office to stamp my stay applications and affidavits of service with a "Proof of Service" stamp, they said they didn't have those and simply stamped them with the general "Received" stamp. So, this morning was my court date and upon meeting with the prosecutor before the proceedings began, they noted that I had filed an 11B. While I was waiting for my turn, I saw the prosecutor leaf through my package, smile and show it the officer. At that point, I was thinking, "oh no, they found something which they're gonna argue against" and my heart rate ended up increasing a bit. When I got up for my turn though, I saw that the officer had left the room and before I could even say anything to the Justice, the prosecutor mentioned that my 11B had been filed for an almost 12 month delay and they dropped all charges. I was ready to argue for my case based on the Andrade precedent and I only ended up saying "Thank you" to the court. :D In retrospect, I'm thinking the prosecutor was simply asking the officer if he was willing to fight it or not... Anyways, just wanted to give a big thanks to everyone who helped me out on this thread, you have my eternal appreciations!
Sona wrote:
My personal view is that it doesnt hurt to file an 11B and try to get a stay before entering a plea for your ticket. You lose nothing. That said, a prosecutor told me last week that she would fight an 11B unless it was about 14 months delay. I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now. However, to me, the matter isnt closed. I would argue the 11B in court with the help of case law. I am new to this site, hopefully, others will add to this.
Hi everyone,
Just an update on the situation:
I did end up filing an 11B two weeks ago and went through all the hurdles of getting things signed and stamped. When I pressed both the court clerks and the prosecutor's office to stamp my stay applications and affidavits of service with a "Proof of Service" stamp, they said they didn't have those and simply stamped them with the general "Received" stamp.
So, this morning was my court date and upon meeting with the prosecutor before the proceedings began, they noted that I had filed an 11B. While I was waiting for my turn, I saw the prosecutor leaf through my package, smile and show it the officer. At that point, I was thinking, "oh no, they found something which they're gonna argue against" and my heart rate ended up increasing a bit. When I got up for my turn though, I saw that the officer had left the room and before I could even say anything to the Justice, the prosecutor mentioned that my 11B had been filed for an almost 12 month delay and they dropped all charges. I was ready to argue for my case based on the Andrade precedent and I only ended up saying "Thank you" to the court. In retrospect, I'm thinking the prosecutor was simply asking the officer if he was willing to fight it or not...
Anyways, just wanted to give a big thanks to everyone who helped me out on this thread, you have my eternal appreciations!
Good for you!! It is not up to officers to go to trial or not......most likely showed the package to the officer, indicating the reason for the withdrawal of charges, so if it was an error on the officers part (ie: slow to provide disclosure to prosecutor) can learn from it, or maybe if was prosecutor fault (slow on sending out disclosure) or court fault (slow for scheduling the trial date), just a courtesy to the officer.
Good for you!!
fmarshall wrote:
. While I was waiting for my turn, I saw the prosecutor leaf through my package, smile and show it the officer...... In retrospect, I'm thinking the prosecutor was simply asking the officer if he was willing to fight it or not...
It is not up to officers to go to trial or not......most likely showed the package to the officer, indicating the reason for the withdrawal of charges, so if it was an error on the officers part (ie: slow to provide disclosure to prosecutor) can learn from it, or maybe if was prosecutor fault (slow on sending out disclosure) or court fault (slow for scheduling the trial date), just a courtesy to the officer.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Morin was a cased that was decided back in 1992 by the Supreme Court. It cannot be appealed because (a) it's 20 years old, and (b) there's nowhere to appeal from the Supreme Court.
Sona wrote:
I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now.
Morin was a cased that was decided back in 1992 by the Supreme Court. It cannot be appealed because (a) it's 20 years old, and (b) there's nowhere to appeal from the Supreme Court.
Here's a link to the above-mentioned R. v. Andrade case - http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/20 ... cj470.html It's got extremely clear guidelines regarding 11(b) considerations, especially in the Toronto area, and can help you properly argue you application in court.
It's got extremely clear guidelines regarding 11(b) considerations, especially in the Toronto area, and can help you properly argue you application in court.
LOL, appealed. To where? As Simon says... it's the Supreme Court of Canada that decided it. Nice try on her part with the bluff, though.
Sona wrote:
I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now.
LOL, appealed. To where? As Simon says... it's the Supreme Court of Canada that decided it. Nice try on her part with the bluff, though.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
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In retrospect, I'm thinking the prosecutor was simply asking the officer if he was willing to fight it or not...
