Hello everyone, I got a ticket for going 20 km/h over 50 in Toronto around March of last year and received my court summons for a hearing in February 2012 approx. 3 weeks ago. Mailed out a request for disclosure a week after that. It's now been 2 and a 1/2 weeks since the request and I was wondering when would be an appropriate time to file another request? I didn't put any kind of diary date on the first request, so I'm wondering if that's letting the prosecutor stall.... Would appreciate any advice!
Hello everyone,
I got a ticket for going 20 km/h over 50 in Toronto around March of last year and received my court summons for a hearing in February 2012 approx. 3 weeks ago. Mailed out a request for disclosure a week after that. It's now been 2 and a 1/2 weeks since the request and I was wondering when would be an appropriate time to file another request? I didn't put any kind of diary date on the first request, so I'm wondering if that's letting the prosecutor stall....
I would give it another 2 weeks before mailing out another request. You may want to make sure that your request includes specific useful information pertaining to your case, and you may want to use registered mail. Btw, your hearing in February isn't a trial. If you haven't yet received a Notice of Trial in the mail, then your hearing in February is probably a First Attendance meeting.
I would give it another 2 weeks before mailing out another request.
You may want to make sure that your request includes specific useful information pertaining to your case, and you may want to use registered mail.
Btw, your hearing in February isn't a trial. If you haven't yet received a Notice of Trial in the mail, then your hearing in February is probably a First Attendance meeting.
So, update on this... I received a letter from the court prosecutor to pick up my disclosure package. Regarding this, would it be recommended that I open up the package there to make sure all the documents I asked for in my request were given to me? If I do find something missing and ask for a reason, I fear I wouldn't have this reason in writing. But if I sign for the package without looking through the contents, would it look like I accept what they have given me? Thanks in advance for any advice!
So, update on this...
I received a letter from the court prosecutor to pick up my disclosure package. Regarding this, would it be recommended that I open up the package there to make sure all the documents I asked for in my request were given to me? If I do find something missing and ask for a reason, I fear I wouldn't have this reason in writing. But if I sign for the package without looking through the contents, would it look like I accept what they have given me?
There's normally not a lot of strategy to this. You pick up the package, you check it out, if there's something missing, you submit a followup disclosure request in writing shortly after. You keep repeating this process until you get everything you want or until you get to court and then you put it on the record, along with all of your efforts.
There's normally not a lot of strategy to this. You pick up the package, you check it out, if there's something missing, you submit a followup disclosure request in writing shortly after. You keep repeating this process until you get everything you want or until you get to court and then you put it on the record, along with all of your efforts.
Hi Vinny, I will definitely look at filing an 11B, as I didn't realize that it was at least 11 months (thought it would have to be at least a year). Anyways, a few days ago, I picked up my disclosure package and noticed a few things which seemed unclear. As part of my request, I had asked for an explanation of short forms which the officer may have written in his notes, as well as the operating manual for the laser device. From what I received, I have not received any explanation of the short forms (I guess this will go on my second request) and also got a copy of the testing record for the laser device. On the bottom of this record, there appears to be a training record for the officer but it is really badly photocopied and smudged to the point of being unreadable (basically a big block of black splotches). I also noticed that this record doesn't seem to have any date written on it. Would that training record have a date? Or is this a potential fatal error? Thanks again for all the advice everyone, this has been really educational and helpful for me!
Hi Vinny, I will definitely look at filing an 11B, as I didn't realize that it was at least 11 months (thought it would have to be at least a year).
Anyways, a few days ago, I picked up my disclosure package and noticed a few things which seemed unclear. As part of my request, I had asked for an explanation of short forms which the officer may have written in his notes, as well as the operating manual for the laser device. From what I received, I have not received any explanation of the short forms (I guess this will go on my second request) and also got a copy of the testing record for the laser device. On the bottom of this record, there appears to be a training record for the officer but it is really badly photocopied and smudged to the point of being unreadable (basically a big block of black splotches). I also noticed that this record doesn't seem to have any date written on it. Would that training record have a date? Or is this a potential fatal error?
Thanks again for all the advice everyone, this has been really educational and helpful for me!
It used to be 1 year for an 11b, now it's closer to 9 months. See this topic here: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic3881.html As for the training certificate, I'd suspect it should have a date on it, but there is no requirement to provide any documentation. Case law has said it's not something required in disclosure, and any concerns over training can be brought up at trial.
As for the training certificate, I'd suspect it should have a date on it, but there is no requirement to provide any documentation. Case law has said it's not something required in disclosure, and any concerns over training can be brought up at trial.
Update on the situation: Well, I had sent in another request for disclosure in late November but didn't receive any notice from the prosecutor's office regarding this, so I sent another follow up to them to request for the items that were missing, as described in my last post above. From the evidence I have so far, I'm not sure if I am able to cast any reasonable doubt over the situation but I'm also turning to filing an 11B. My question though, is reading the TicketCombat website, I never saw the advice to send a letter to the prosecutor to request a trial. In not sending that, would that make it more difficult for me to be granted a stay? Also, I never requested any information on the laser gun instruction manual in any of my three disclosure requests, should I be asking for those or does it matter/too late? Thanks!
Update on the situation:
Well, I had sent in another request for disclosure in late November but didn't receive any notice from the prosecutor's office regarding this, so I sent another follow up to them to request for the items that were missing, as described in my last post above. From the evidence I have so far, I'm not sure if I am able to cast any reasonable doubt over the situation but I'm also turning to filing an 11B. My question though, is reading the TicketCombat website, I never saw the advice to send a letter to the prosecutor to request a trial. In not sending that, would that make it more difficult for me to be granted a stay? Also, I never requested any information on the laser gun instruction manual in any of my three disclosure requests, should I be asking for those or does it matter/too late?
Ok, another update: I have received a response to my third disclosure request, in which I stated that on the evidence they give, I would like an explanation of the short forms in the officer's notes and if this wasn't provided, a reason for why not. In short, they failed to provide that and I still have slightly illegible notes here...would this be a case of improper disclosure if they did not explain why they didn't fill that part of my request and could I argue that with an 11B? Here are the notes, I was wondering if anyone could help decipher what it means....
Ok, another update:
I have received a response to my third disclosure request, in which I stated that on the evidence they give, I would like an explanation of the short forms in the officer's notes and if this wasn't provided, a reason for why not. In short, they failed to provide that and I still have slightly illegible notes here...would this be a case of improper disclosure if they did not explain why they didn't fill that part of my request and could I argue that with an 11B? Here are the notes, I was wondering if anyone could help decipher what it means....
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. Register to view.
From what I see, the notes say -- Silver, 4 door, (next word is cut off on your attachment, it would be the make...looks like Toyota) Solo occupant (no passenger) (not sure what O/A is)...Lead vehicle, curb lane 71.7 (likely the speed you were clocked at) 106.44 (possibly the fine or could be your speed) 3180 0049B could be part of the offence notice number O/C & Cold is overcast and cold Not sure what R Dxx TW is, unless it means Really Dry 50 metres South Gailgrove This is pretty much the info the officer would need during the trial. Hope this helps.
From what I see, the notes say --
Silver, 4 door, (next word is cut off on your attachment, it would be the make...looks like Toyota)
Solo occupant (no passenger)
(not sure what O/A is)...Lead vehicle, curb lane
71.7 (likely the speed you were clocked at)
106.44 (possibly the fine or could be your speed)
3180 0049B could be part of the offence notice number
O/C & Cold is overcast and cold
Not sure what R Dxx TW is, unless it means Really Dry
50 metres South Gailgrove
This is pretty much the info the officer would need during the trial.
Hi Sona, thanks for that! My question now revolves around a specific request in my disclosure where I asked the officer to provide an explanation of the short forms used in his notes and if these were not available, I would like to receive an explanation regarding why they weren't available. This was not provided and I have filed three disclosure requests so far (two have been received by the prosecutor and responded to). As such, would this be grounds to argue for improper disclosure or as institutional delay for an 11B (it will have been 11 months and 14 days since the offence and as noted in Stanton's post above, City of Toronto v. Andrade case showed that 11 and 28 and 11 and 4 were suitable for 11B to be accepted)?
Sona wrote:
From what I see, the notes say --
Silver, 4 door, (next word is cut off on your attachment, it would be the make...looks like Toyota)
Solo occupant (no passenger)
(not sure what O/A is)...Lead vehicle, curb lane
71.7 (likely the speed you were clocked at)
106.44 (possibly the fine or could be your speed)
3180 0049B could be part of the offence notice number
O/C & Cold is overcast and cold
Not sure what R Dxx TW is, unless it means Really Dry
50 metres South Gailgrove
This is pretty much the info the officer would need during the trial.
Hope this helps.
Hi Sona, thanks for that! My question now revolves around a specific request in my disclosure where I asked the officer to provide an explanation of the short forms used in his notes and if these were not available, I would like to receive an explanation regarding why they weren't available. This was not provided and I have filed three disclosure requests so far (two have been received by the prosecutor and responded to). As such, would this be grounds to argue for improper disclosure or as institutional delay for an 11B (it will have been 11 months and 14 days since the offence and as noted in Stanton's post above, City of Toronto v. Andrade case showed that 11 and 28 and 11 and 4 were suitable for 11B to be accepted)?
My personal view is that it doesnt hurt to file an 11B and try to get a stay before entering a plea for your ticket. You lose nothing. That said, a prosecutor told me last week that she would fight an 11B unless it was about 14 months delay. I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now. However, to me, the matter isnt closed. I would argue the 11B in court with the help of case law. I am new to this site, hopefully, others will add to this.
My personal view is that it doesnt hurt to file an 11B and try to get a stay before entering a plea for your ticket. You lose nothing. That said, a prosecutor told me last week that she would fight an 11B unless it was about 14 months delay. I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now. However, to me, the matter isnt closed. I would argue the 11B in court with the help of case law. I am new to this site, hopefully, others will add to this.
Hi everyone, Just an update on the situation: I did end up filing an 11B two weeks ago and went through all the hurdles of getting things signed and stamped. When I pressed both the court clerks and the prosecutor's office to stamp my stay applications and affidavits of service with a "Proof of Service" stamp, they said they didn't have those and simply stamped them with the general "Received" stamp. So, this morning was my court date and upon meeting with the prosecutor before the proceedings began, they noted that I had filed an 11B. While I was waiting for my turn, I saw the prosecutor leaf through my package, smile and show it the officer. At that point, I was thinking, "oh no, they found something which they're gonna argue against" and my heart rate ended up increasing a bit. When I got up for my turn though, I saw that the officer had left the room and before I could even say anything to the Justice, the prosecutor mentioned that my 11B had been filed for an almost 12 month delay and they dropped all charges. I was ready to argue for my case based on the Andrade precedent and I only ended up saying "Thank you" to the court. :D In retrospect, I'm thinking the prosecutor was simply asking the officer if he was willing to fight it or not... Anyways, just wanted to give a big thanks to everyone who helped me out on this thread, you have my eternal appreciations!
Sona wrote:
My personal view is that it doesnt hurt to file an 11B and try to get a stay before entering a plea for your ticket. You lose nothing. That said, a prosecutor told me last week that she would fight an 11B unless it was about 14 months delay. I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now. However, to me, the matter isnt closed. I would argue the 11B in court with the help of case law. I am new to this site, hopefully, others will add to this.
Hi everyone,
Just an update on the situation:
I did end up filing an 11B two weeks ago and went through all the hurdles of getting things signed and stamped. When I pressed both the court clerks and the prosecutor's office to stamp my stay applications and affidavits of service with a "Proof of Service" stamp, they said they didn't have those and simply stamped them with the general "Received" stamp.
So, this morning was my court date and upon meeting with the prosecutor before the proceedings began, they noted that I had filed an 11B. While I was waiting for my turn, I saw the prosecutor leaf through my package, smile and show it the officer. At that point, I was thinking, "oh no, they found something which they're gonna argue against" and my heart rate ended up increasing a bit. When I got up for my turn though, I saw that the officer had left the room and before I could even say anything to the Justice, the prosecutor mentioned that my 11B had been filed for an almost 12 month delay and they dropped all charges. I was ready to argue for my case based on the Andrade precedent and I only ended up saying "Thank you" to the court. In retrospect, I'm thinking the prosecutor was simply asking the officer if he was willing to fight it or not...
Anyways, just wanted to give a big thanks to everyone who helped me out on this thread, you have my eternal appreciations!
Good for you!! It is not up to officers to go to trial or not......most likely showed the package to the officer, indicating the reason for the withdrawal of charges, so if it was an error on the officers part (ie: slow to provide disclosure to prosecutor) can learn from it, or maybe if was prosecutor fault (slow on sending out disclosure) or court fault (slow for scheduling the trial date), just a courtesy to the officer.
Good for you!!
fmarshall wrote:
. While I was waiting for my turn, I saw the prosecutor leaf through my package, smile and show it the officer...... In retrospect, I'm thinking the prosecutor was simply asking the officer if he was willing to fight it or not...
It is not up to officers to go to trial or not......most likely showed the package to the officer, indicating the reason for the withdrawal of charges, so if it was an error on the officers part (ie: slow to provide disclosure to prosecutor) can learn from it, or maybe if was prosecutor fault (slow on sending out disclosure) or court fault (slow for scheduling the trial date), just a courtesy to the officer.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Morin was a cased that was decided back in 1992 by the Supreme Court. It cannot be appealed because (a) it's 20 years old, and (b) there's nowhere to appeal from the Supreme Court.
Sona wrote:
I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now.
Morin was a cased that was decided back in 1992 by the Supreme Court. It cannot be appealed because (a) it's 20 years old, and (b) there's nowhere to appeal from the Supreme Court.
Here's a link to the above-mentioned R. v. Andrade case - http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/20 ... cj470.html It's got extremely clear guidelines regarding 11(b) considerations, especially in the Toronto area, and can help you properly argue you application in court.
It's got extremely clear guidelines regarding 11(b) considerations, especially in the Toronto area, and can help you properly argue you application in court.
LOL, appealed. To where? As Simon says... it's the Supreme Court of Canada that decided it. Nice try on her part with the bluff, though.
Sona wrote:
I reminded her of R v. Morin (8-10 month delay). She said that is being appealed right now.
LOL, appealed. To where? As Simon says... it's the Supreme Court of Canada that decided it. Nice try on her part with the bluff, though.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
I got ticket for failing to stop at stop sign in Toronto. i heard that the police officer must see the stop line, if there is one, from where he was sitting. That is exactly my case, Is it a strong case? If so do i need a picture to show that there is a stop line and a picture to show that he could not see the stop line from where he was sitting?
I got a ticket, Disobey stop sign, sec 136.1.a on dec 6th
I made a left in an intersection and was pulled over by a police officer in an unmarked car who had been sitting down the road. A classic fishing hole situation. I was genuinely surprised when he stopped me and told me I went through a stop sign without even slowing down. I know to shut up and be polite and take the ticket. I…
Yesterday morning, I rear-ended someone. I was going the speed limit. The sun was directly in front of me and it blinded my windshield and my eyes. At the same time, the person in front of me stopped/slowed down (also due to the sun). I started to slow down but didn't stop and I hit them since I couldn't see anything. I was not driving too close initially. I…
I was driving in the county at night and hit a limousine stretched out side ways across the road. The limo had its lights on and had side lighting as well. The police officer charged me with careless driving because it was "fully lit up".
It took me to the next day to figure out what had happened - what I remember made no sense. What I had run across was a "false visual reference" illusion.
I was on hwy 37 trying to make my girlfriends ganadmas mass and I live an hour away and I had an hour to get there so I was going fast but not 50 over untill some idiot got on my tail soo close that I was to concentrated on him that I kept going faster untill I got pulled over at 147 on an 80 km hwy.
I alreaddy lost 3 points and this time was just the…
Hello, got stopped today for rolling a stop sign. Ticket says failure to stop, but quotes hta 1361b.
Doesn't 1361b mean failure to yield?
Is this a fatal error? Or could it be amended at trial. How can I prepare a defence if I don't know if I'm defending the failure to stop or the failure to yield?
After he was providing me with a ticket for failure to obey to the stop sign (I am pretty sure I stopped but less than 3 seconds recommended by my driver ed. instructor), I know everybody say that..as an excuse.
Then he stopped me again to return the documents.
Any advice and feed back would be really appreciated.
Can you get evidence for whether someone had an advanced green at an intersection? My dad was making a right turn on a red (after stopping) into a plaza parking lot. He got hit by someone making a left turn from the opposite lane. The driver told the officer called to the collision that he had an advance green. My dad said he came out of nowhere which makes me…
So i was driving on Eglinton Avenue East near Rosemount Ave.
The school bus was on the the curb on the opposite side of the road while i was travelling on the middle lane of the three-laned Eglinton Avenue East (five lanes apart plus a raised median island seperating the traffic)
I could not see the school bus as my view of the bus was being obstructed by the cars in front of me and on my left hand…
Lots of good information on getting disclosure from the Crown here.
Now, I am just wondering if I will be relying upon evidence of my own at trial... do I have to voluntarily send this material to the Crown in a reasonable time before the trial, or only if they request disclosure from me?
This morning I had an exam for university. I was studying the entire night and i wanted to catch like maybe 1-2 hours of sleep before the exam so i went to sleep. I woke up like 5 hrs after and realize that I was about to miss my exam. I still could have made it so I asked my dad for his car since I was in a huge rush and he gave it to me.
I went on the highway and I was going at 135 km/h but…
the police officer was in in the opesite oncumming lane he was fallowing another car so close that i was not even able to see his cruser till he was buy he said that i was going 111 in a 80 he said he hade me on radar he only asked for me drivers licencs and never asked for my insurence so on the ticket there no insurence dose enyone think i can beat this i wana take it to cort becuse he was…
Hi I have a couple questions so I'll explain my situation and any advice would be appreciated.
Can't remember exact date so lets call it some time in 2008 I got a fine for $5000.00 for driving without in insurance. I never paid the fine and in 2012 I was pulled over and the officer asked to see my license. Although I had it on me I figured it would be under suspension for the unpaid fine from…
Alright, so I did something really stupid the other day, I was driving down a country road and wanted to hit the curves so I passed 3 cars at once, inadvertently making it up to very much past 50 over (80 limit)... Much to my chagrin there was a cop coming in the opposite direction who immediately skidded on the gravel shoulder and who I thought was 100% going to turn around and pull me over,…
Anyone know how backed this courthouse is? I submitted my ticket for trial at the end of August, and still no letter. Im scared it got lost in the mail, can i call the courthouse and find out my courtdate? Or would i have to go in personally?
I recently received a ticket for failure to use low beams - while following - Ticket was issued Sec 168 (
- it was on the 401 and no one was within 500 meters of me, I was warning a oncoming vehicle that there was an officer hiding (which is not illegal or I could not find a law against it) it was a police vehicle travelling at very high rate of speed in the opposite direction with no lights on…
I received a warning letter from MTO for a 2pts ticket.What happened is that the police officer issued a "unsafe left turn" and then changed the ticket to "failed to signal" at the scene, but she submitted both tickets!!! And I !!!ONLY!!! received the latter ticket from her(I requested trial for "failed to signal"). I recently received notice from MTO that I'm convicted for "unsafe left turn".
Hello everyone! I was given a ticket for using a hand-held communication device while driving. It was 3 am, I was at a stop light and the cop saw me with the my phone in my hand. I told him i was just checking the time on it. I received the notes a few weeks ago ill copy them down below. Any help is appreciated although i believe there's no hope for me. The cop recorded me saying what phone i…
I got pulled over about 15 or so days ago the court till this date has not received the summons what is the legal time period that the court has to follow to accept the summons from the office court says its 15 days is the legal timeframe the officer has to serve it on the court
I requested for disclosure of information two months ago.
I received the radar manual after one month, but not others (including maintenance/calibration record of the radar, certificate of police training). On further pursuit, the prosecutor told me that he did not have them and he did not see why I needed these documents. He said he did not know where to get them when I asked.
Last Friday I was pulled over by an OPP motorcycle cop who informed me I was going 134. I was on the SB 404, I did see him parked under a bridge and when I passed him he was not on his bike.
I'm hoping to get some insight for a defense in this case.
I was in lane 1 and I had a car in front of me, and a car behind me, also there was a car speeding down Lane 3 passing everyone and moved quickly into…
In retrospect, I'm thinking the prosecutor was simply asking the officer if he was willing to fight it or not...
