The infraction was during a right turn, onto a major road. This was a T-intersection with two right turn lanes. My vehicle was in the right most lane, and in the lane to my left a Police Officer was making a right turn also. 500m ahead, the officer pulled me over (in a city). It seemed like a long time until he did. (Did the officer deny me a right to find witnesses, by waiting this long to pull me over..?) He said I came into his lane, and also said so in his notes. Charged me with Turn Not in Safety My potential 'defense', is that there were no lines to separate the turning lanes as they curved on a steep and quick angle. Furthermore, a look at google street-view shows the area DID HAVE clear turning lines several years ago. Is there any defense in this? I haven't found anything in the HTA, regarding road maintenance and exemptions. At the very least, I plan on using photos showing no lines to demonstrate the officer couldn't say I was "in his lane" when there were no road lines to use as a basis for such a claim. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, Jay
The infraction was during a right turn, onto a major road. This was a T-intersection with two right turn lanes. My vehicle was in the right most lane, and in the lane to my left a Police Officer was making a right turn also.
500m ahead, the officer pulled me over (in a city). It seemed like a long time until he did. (Did the officer deny me a right to find witnesses, by waiting this long to pull me over..?)
He said I came into his lane, and also said so in his notes. Charged me with Turn Not in Safety
My potential 'defense', is that there were no lines to separate the turning lanes as they curved on a steep and quick angle. Furthermore, a look at google street-view shows the area DID HAVE clear turning lines several years ago. Is there any defense in this? I haven't found anything in the HTA, regarding road maintenance and exemptions.
At the very least, I plan on using photos showing no lines to demonstrate the officer couldn't say I was "in his lane" when there were no road lines to use as a basis for such a claim.
the more appropriate charge imo should have been "Improper Right Turn" contrary to S. 141 (2) http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... uote]Right turn at intersection (2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).[/quote]if there were no marked lanes and you're in the far right lane - you must turn directly to the left edge of the nearest right curb; but not turning in safety opens a whole can of worms; the officer i feel has overcharged and would have to articulate how your turn was not made in safety i would also like to add that lines painted on Ontario roads are meaningless unless they're accompanied by a posted sign; if there was a sign prior to entering the intersection i would take a look at it ex: http://goo.gl/maps/5buqN (white on black signs) file it for trial and when you receive your notice of trial - request for disclosure
the more appropriate charge imo should have been "Improper Right Turn" contrary to S. 141 (2)
(2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).[/quote]if there were no marked lanes and you're in the far right lane - you must turn directly to the left edge of the nearest right curb; but not turning in safety opens a whole can of worms; the officer i feel has overcharged and would have to articulate how your turn was not made in safety
i would also like to add that lines painted on Ontario roads are meaningless unless they're accompanied by a posted sign; if there was a sign prior to entering the intersection i would take a look at it
if there were no marked lanes and you're in the far right lane - you must turn directly to the left edge of the nearest right curb; but not turning in safety opens a whole can of worms; the officer i feel has overcharged and would have to articulate how your turn was not made in safety i would also like to add that lines painted on Ontario roads are meaningless unless they're accompanied by a posted sign; if there was a sign prior to entering the intersection i would take a look at it ex: http://goo.gl/maps/5buqN (white on black signs) file it for trial and when you receive your notice of trial - request for disclosure[/quote] Thank you for your kind response. I have a court date booked, have received disclosure, and will work on a defence around what you have said. One more question, when presenting evidence such as a photo, do I need to 'give disclosure' beforehand, or do I just show up to court with copies of the photo for judge, prosecutor, etc. ?
iFly55 wrote:
the more appropriate charge imo should have been "Improper Right Turn" contrary to S. 141 (2)
(2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).
if there were no marked lanes and you're in the far right lane - you must turn directly to the left edge of the nearest right curb; but not turning in safety opens a whole can of worms; the officer i feel has overcharged and would have to articulate how your turn was not made in safety
i would also like to add that lines painted on Ontario roads are meaningless unless they're accompanied by a posted sign; if there was a sign prior to entering the intersection i would take a look at it
file it for trial and when you receive your notice of trial - request for disclosure[/quote]
Thank you for your kind response. I have a court date booked, have received disclosure, and will work on a defence around what you have said. One more question, when presenting evidence such as a photo, do I need to 'give disclosure' beforehand, or do I just show up to court with copies of the photo for judge, prosecutor, etc. ?
The intersection DOES have turning signs as you have shown in your link. The only lines missing, were curved lines on the turn itself. Does this allow a specific defence? Thanks again!
iFly55 wrote:
i would also like to add that lines painted on Ontario roads are meaningless unless they're accompanied by a posted sign; if there was a sign prior to entering the intersection i would take a look at it
The intersection DOES have turning signs as you have shown in your link. The only lines missing, were curved lines on the turn itself. Does this allow a specific defence?
I just wanted to comment on your thinking the officer waited to pull you over because, in your mind, he was denying you access witnesses... ... LOL. Really? Okay *rolls eyes* the reason for the delay was likely that he was conducting investigative checks on your vehicle, the registered owner, and/or advising his dispatcher that he would be conducting a vehicle stop in the area.
I just wanted to comment on your thinking the officer waited to pull you over because, in your mind, he was denying you access witnesses...
... LOL. Really? Okay *rolls eyes*
the reason for the delay was likely that he was conducting investigative checks on your vehicle, the registered owner, and/or advising his dispatcher that he would be conducting a vehicle stop in the area.
No, I am not the chief of Toronto Police.
No, I do not work for Toronto Police...
... it is just a name folks
I don't doubt what you said, but why can't he perform those checks once your vehicle is pulled over? We've all seen dozens of times, officers pull someone over instantly after they observe an infraction - so I don't find your response valid. In general, the officer IS lessening the chance you can find a witness. And not in this case, but sometimes, officers have intentionally abused the system in this way to make their charges stick.
tdottopcop wrote:
I just wanted to comment on your thinking the officer waited to pull you over because, in your mind, he was denying you access witnesses...
... LOL. Really? Okay *rolls eyes*
the reason for the delay was likely that he was conducting investigative checks on your vehicle, the registered owner, and/or advising his dispatcher that he would be conducting a vehicle stop in the area.
I don't doubt what you said, but why can't he perform those checks once your vehicle is pulled over? We've all seen dozens of times, officers pull someone over instantly after they observe an infraction - so I don't find your response valid.
In general, the officer IS lessening the chance you can find a witness. And not in this case, but sometimes, officers have intentionally abused the system in this way to make their charges stick.
I take my time when I pull people over and do the investigative checks BEFORE I stop them for a number of reasons. Namely, I want to know who or what I am stopping BEFORE my eyes are looking down at a screen and not at the potential threat in front of me. And I also want to know who or what I am stopping so I can decide if I need to have other officers present in order for me to conduct the stop safely. For example, let's say I run your licence plate and it comes back to a stolen car. Well, I'm not going to just stop that myself and not notify my dispatcher or have back up in case you drive away, run away or pull out a gun on me. Or, let's say I run your plate and it comes back to information where the owner might be armed with a handgun, is mentally unstable and wants police to shoot him in order to commit suicide. Do I want to stop that care alone? NO. Do I want to know this BEFORE I activate my emergency equipment? YES. Those are both real life, recent, examples in my career by the way. A lot of what is done is done in the name of safety- and 99 times out of 100, the way things are done make everything less efficient and slower and, in your case, make you somehow think we are denying you your ability to retain witnesses- but why would I go to such lengths to make your 'charges stick'? Do I REALLY care about your illegal turn? No. I don't. And neither do other officers at the end of the day. But what we all do care about is our safety.
jk47 wrote:
tdottopcop wrote:
I don't doubt what you said, but why can't he perform those checks once your vehicle is pulled over? We've all seen dozens of times, officers pull someone over instantly after they observe an infraction - so I don't find your response valid.
In general, the officer IS lessening the chance you can find a witness. And not in this case, but sometimes, officers have intentionally abused the system in this way to make their charges stick.
I take my time when I pull people over and do the investigative checks BEFORE I stop them for a number of reasons. Namely, I want to know who or what I am stopping BEFORE my eyes are looking down at a screen and not at the potential threat in front of me.
And I also want to know who or what I am stopping so I can decide if I need to have other officers present in order for me to conduct the stop safely. For example, let's say I run your licence plate and it comes back to a stolen car. Well, I'm not going to just stop that myself and not notify my dispatcher or have back up in case you drive away, run away or pull out a gun on me.
Or, let's say I run your plate and it comes back to information where the owner might be armed with a handgun, is mentally unstable and wants police to shoot him in order to commit suicide. Do I want to stop that care alone? NO. Do I want to know this BEFORE I activate my emergency equipment? YES.
Those are both real life, recent, examples in my career by the way.
A lot of what is done is done in the name of safety- and 99 times out of 100, the way things are done make everything less efficient and slower and, in your case, make you somehow think we are denying you your ability to retain witnesses- but why would I go to such lengths to make your 'charges stick'? Do I REALLY care about your illegal turn? No. I don't. And neither do other officers at the end of the day. But what we all do care about is our safety.
No, I am not the chief of Toronto Police.
No, I do not work for Toronto Police...
... it is just a name folks
I'm curious as to exactly how you would "find" a witness? Stop someone driving by at 50 km/h or start approaching pedestrians in the area as the officer writes your ticket? They're not going to stick around.
I'm curious as to exactly how you would "find" a witness? Stop someone driving by at 50 km/h or start approaching pedestrians in the area as the officer writes your ticket? They're not going to stick around.
Years ago, an officer pulled me over for 'running a stop sign on a school bus'. Which as far as I know, is a brutal traffic charge, far worse then just running a stop sign. I was scratching my head because I knew I didn't. He was in the process of writing me a ticket, when the school bus driver herself approached my vehicle and told us both I passed the bus just as the sign went out and it was impossible for me to have seen it. Had she not done so, it would have been my word against the Officer's, with the odds stacked against me. The officer of course withdrew his ticket. Two weeks ago, a vehicle in front of me was pulled over by a Police Radar team for speeding. The thing is, he wasn't speeding because I was going the same speed and it was EXACTLY the speed limit. However an SUV infront of him was going quite fast. I pulled over ahead, and explained this to the officers. They conceded that they may have hit the SUV with the radar instead. I can't speak for you, but I've personally been 'rescued' by a witness, and have been a witness myself. Not saying it's easy to 'find' one, but it can't hurt to try.
Decatur wrote:
I'm curious as to exactly how you would "find" a witness? Stop someone driving by at 50 km/h or start approaching pedestrians in the area as the officer writes your ticket? They're not going to stick around.
Years ago, an officer pulled me over for 'running a stop sign on a school bus'. Which as far as I know, is a brutal traffic charge, far worse then just running a stop sign. I was scratching my head because I knew I didn't. He was in the process of writing me a ticket, when the school bus driver herself approached my vehicle and told us both I passed the bus just as the sign went out and it was impossible for me to have seen it. Had she not done so, it would have been my word against the Officer's, with the odds stacked against me. The officer of course withdrew his ticket.
Two weeks ago, a vehicle in front of me was pulled over by a Police Radar team for speeding. The thing is, he wasn't speeding because I was going the same speed and it was EXACTLY the speed limit. However an SUV infront of him was going quite fast. I pulled over ahead, and explained this to the officers. They conceded that they may have hit the SUV with the radar instead.
I can't speak for you, but I've personally been 'rescued' by a witness, and have been a witness myself. Not saying it's easy to 'find' one, but it can't hurt to try.
Glad you're a good-guy cop who doesn't care if charges stick.... Why do other GTA police officers go to such great lengths to have charges stick? Why did the police officer at my speeding trial, pull me out of the courtroom and try to coerce me into accepting a guilty deal? -then 3 minutes later after whispering to prosecutor, have charges withdrawn? Why did another police officer (in another speeding case), tell me he wasn't going to show up to court, and then shows up with a smirk on his face? Don't trust my word for it? Why is the Ontario Lead Prosecutor currently investigating the broad depth of police deception and lies? http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/arti ... -deception. You don't think that many police officers are driven by career goals and are lacking a moral compass? And I'm glad you're so concerned about your safety. I'm concerned about mine too, and my rights to protection from the police officers who are bad apples.
tdottopcop wrote:
...you somehow think we are denying you your ability to retain witnesses- but why would I go to such lengths to make your 'charges stick'? Do I REALLY care about your illegal turn? No. I don't. And neither do other officers at the end of the day. But what we all do care about is our safety.
Glad you're a good-guy cop who doesn't care if charges stick....
Why do other GTA police officers go to such great lengths to have charges stick?
Why did the police officer at my speeding trial, pull me out of the courtroom and try to coerce me into accepting a guilty deal? -then 3 minutes later after whispering to prosecutor, have charges withdrawn?
Why did another police officer (in another speeding case), tell me he wasn't going to show up to court, and then shows up with a smirk on his face?
Don't trust my word for it? Why is the Ontario Lead Prosecutor currently investigating the broad depth of police deception and lies?
You don't think that many police officers are driven by career goals and are lacking a moral compass?
And I'm glad you're so concerned about your safety. I'm concerned about mine too, and my rights to protection from the police officers who are bad apples.
I have a lot of issues with the idea that speed measuring devices like radar and lidar guns are using computer generated simulations to test themselves that they are working properly. The manufacturer is making a claim that a device can test itself. Where's the proof that it works?
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Turn not in Safety - Is this a valid defese?
