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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Fatal Error
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:54 am 
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Posts: 8
Hello,

I have read the topics about fatal errors but cannot find what I am exactly looking for. In short, I live in Pickering rarely ever venture in mid town toronto but I did and received a ticket for being 32 over the speed limit. The problem is that the ticket just says southbound bayview and nothing else. I went back to area but cannot remember where exactly it happened, notice also the speed limit changes various times. any advice would be appreciated. i suppose the officers notes may have the location but that may be months away.

thanks,

Sunny


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
What do you mean by nothing else? No City, Township, etc. could be problematic, but a lack of cross street is not. The only time cross streets are typically listed is when the offence is related to an intersection (i.e. failing to stop at a red light). On speeding tickets, typically only the street where the offence occurred is listed.


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:03 pm 
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thanks,


the speeding tickets that i have had over the years usually have sometype of cross street, perhaps not completely accurate but enough where i could find the actual place or at least plant it on a map. i got on bayview from leslie I believe and went southbound and southbound bayview from there runs several kms...changes speed many times..an approximate cross street would be nice..dunno how i am going to find that..it just says southbound bayview


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:10 pm 
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Posts: 1064
sunnyg1378 wrote:
thanks,


the speeding tickets that i have had over the years usually have sometype of cross street, perhaps not completely accurate but enough where i could find the actual place or at least plant it on a map. i got on bayview from leslie I believe and went southbound and southbound bayview from there runs several kms...changes speed many times..an approximate cross street would be nice..dunno how i am going to find that..it just says southbound bayview


When/If you request disclosure after requesting a trial date, the officer will have more detail in his notes. He'll possibly have the closest intersection and rough distances of anything related to your offense (eg. max speed sign). The info written on your ticket was perfectly normal.


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Posts: 8
Thanks guys!


So I did have a chance to speak with 3 other people with speeding tickets who all had an approximate location on their speeding ticket Also, I talked to a retired JP earlier today and she gave me some points to ponder:


The difference between no location (Fatal) and incorrect location (non-fatal) is that incorrect location is at least plottable on the map. Make an argument that this is no location because it cannot be plotted on the map.

Disclosure may have the location but that is still several months away but I should still have the right to know the location of the offence so I can plot the defence.

Speed limit, traffic flow and other factors in a speeding case can only come from a location or approximate location
Prejudice

Although this is a new charge start ordering disclosure immediately so you can show that you tried your best to get an approximate location


Otherwise, she said do your research and make a solid argument...if she was a JP she might seriously consider it..


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:47 am 
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sunnyg1378 wrote:
The difference between no location (Fatal) and incorrect location (non-fatal) is that incorrect location is at least plottable on the map. Make an argument that this is no location because it cannot be plotted on the map.


Your ticket has the name of the street and that is suffiecent enough for a ticket. The disclosure should have more details. Get over this argument. It's too early. It's going to go no where fast once you either (a) receive disclosure; or (b) don't ask for disclosure and the officer uses his notes to tell you exactly where you were stopped.

If there's no details in the disclosure, then by all means go down that path. You are jumping the gun.

sunnyg1378 wrote:
Disclosure may have the location but that is still several months away but I should still have the right to know the location of the offence so I can plot the defence.


You will have plenty of of time to prepare for trial. Most people still have months to prepare even after requesting disclosure. You're being too dramatic and the courts aren't going to sympathize with you because you didn't have a notepad worth of info directly on your ticket. If by some chance you are given disclosure too close to your trial date, the courts will usually reschedule your date depending on when you requested it in the first place.


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:43 am
Posts: 8
Thanks!

Even though this is a new charge I am going to start requesting disclosure immediately to prove that I did everything possible to get the location. Afterall, why should I have to wait months and months for even an approximate location when everybody has this info on the ticket right away. I will treat this as no location - and ask the prosecutor to plot this location on the map for me. ERM coming up in a few days and I will let you know what happens.

Thanks


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:56 am 
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Most jurisdictions won't accept a request for disclosure until a Notice of Trial is sent out. You may have to wait a bit.


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:00 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:43 am
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Ok- thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it. Its worth a try I suppose to make an argument, you never know people get off on less sometimes. Definately, share some results with you folks. Hopefully, positive!


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
For what it’s worth, in my 10+ years I’ve never once seen a cross street listed on a speeding ticket, nor have I ever heard of the Courts having an issue with this. And with all due respect to the retired JP you spoke with, I can’t see their suggested argument holding any water in Court. I really don’t see how you can argue when the street and city are listed, the location is somehow less accurate then a totally incorrect but specific address.


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:43 am
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Hello Stanton,


Thank you for your advice. But I guess there is a first time for everything. I have uploaded 3 different speeding tickets - 2 from my cousin and an older one for myself. Hope you can see it. I will try to make an argument lets see what happens.



http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/sunny ... 1263544021


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:43 am
Posts: 8
I uploaded 3 to photobucket, you can see all 3 when you hit home.


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Re: Fatal Error
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:43 am
Posts: 8
http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight. ... AAAAAAAAAB

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight. ... AAAAAAAAAB

Very interesting case law...


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