Section 141(5) ticket - 3 demerit points?

Hi,

I posted on Improper Left Turn forum the following, but am wondering now if it was the wrong forum and if this is actually a 3 demerit point ticket. FYI on the Improper Left Turn forum there was discussion on whether this is the wrong charge as D1 was turning into a parking lot / driveway (note that it is a signalized intersection/"driveway" and there is a road opposite the driveway) I'm not posting here to try again per se, but I just came across something on Ticket Combat that lists 141 (5) as a 3 demerit point infraction, not 2. Well, thanks for any help.

"Hi folks, hoping you can help me determine if it is correct that Driver 1 (D1) is 100% at fault, or if Driver 2 (D2) is at fault too:

D1 traveling westbound enters intersection to cross two lanes to make left into a single lane southbound (both eastbound and westbound have left turn lanes in addition to two lanes of flowthrough traffic). Coming the opposite way is D2 in the outside lane.

D1's vehicle gets hit on passenger side by D2's vehicle.

D1 gave following evidence to police officer at the scene:

"I was westbound in left turn lane, signal on, light was green, I wasn't going fast. Thought it was clear, I went, [D2] was too fast." Police had notes at end of D1 statement: No injuries, P/S airbag deployed. No witnesses. Sunny, dry. (seems like it is written as part of D1's statement, but D1 didn't say "Sunny, dry" and we're not sure D1 would have said 'no witnesses' - D1 can't remember this.

D2 gave following evidence to police officer at the scene:

"I was eastbound in outer lane, 55 km/hr, saw car turning, I slowed down, [D1] still didn't turn, blocking my way, slammed on my brakes before intersection, I hit [D2]. Green light all the way."

Witness (in nearby store on south side) gave following evidence at the scene:

"A vehicle was travelling west turned south into store's parking lot right into the path of a vehicle travelling east. The eastbound vehicle impacted the passenger side of the left-turn car and air bags were deployed. The two cars ended up almost side by side. Both vehicles moved their cars into the store's parking lot and waited for police."

D1 was charged with 'Left turn failure to afford reasonable opportunity to avoid collision' and 100% at fault. I believe this is 2 demerit points. "

burgersgirl wrote:

FYI on the Improper Left Turn forum there was discussion on whether this is the wrong charge as D1 was turning into a parking lot / driveway (note that it is a signalized intersection/"driveway" and there is a road opposite the driveway) I'm not posting here to try again per se, but I just came across something on Ticket Combat that lists 141 (5) as a 3 demerit point infraction, not 2. Well, thanks for any help.

The wording of the charge and HTA section fit the situation, as this happened in a T-intersection. The wording of the section only requires the driver to be turning within an intersection, with no requirement to be turning onto a public road. Without the public road opposite the driveway, it could be argued that there is no meeting of public roads and thus no intersection as defined by the HTA, making the specific charge questionable - however this is not the case.

By the way, I think you actually used "per se" properly.

This is a turning offence. HTA 141(5) is under turns.

Yielding is a totally different section and not applicable.

continue discussion on original thread.

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic1572.html

this thread is now locked.