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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Stop Sign-First appearance- Error on ticket. Chance to win?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:51 pm 
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I got ticket for allegedly not stopping at the stop sign on March 5 in one of the roads of Brampton. Then I started reading the blogs and all the information available to dispute the ticket, as I am not guilty of the offense. After reading I decided not to pay the fine and go to the first appearance with the prosecutor. I got the appointment this morning and started the negotiation with the prosecutor. She found that the ticket was wrong, because the set fine was not the correct amount. I got $150 and it should be $ 85. I asked her if the ticket is wrong and I am not guilty why don't you drop the charges. She said that she could not do it and instead she offered me to change the charge to a bylaw 93-93 which is similar to a parking ticket with a fine of $ 60. She also advised me to look for legal advise and she herself helped me to speak to a lawyer that was at the courthouse at this time. I spoke to the lawyer and he explained me that if I accept the new charge and pay the fine nothing will go to my records and therefore my insurance will not increase. He also told me that I can opt to ask for a trial and not show up, because the judge will find the ticket is wrong and will throw the case OR the judge could convict me in absence and then I would have option to appeal, because the set fine was wrong. Reason why I did not showed up at the trial to avoid taking time off from work. I found that accepting the new charge and paying the fine would be the best way to go an spoke again to the prosecutor to accept the deal. Then I was called to a courtroom and there were the judge. the prosecutor and a clerk. You have to speak through a microphone and all what you say is recorded. So the judge inspected the ticker and inquired the prosecutor why she has done a deal knowing that the fine in the ticket was wrong. She kind of recognized her mistake. She told the judge that I got legal advise on the spot and that I have agreed to the new charge/fine. Then I screwed up. When the judge asked me for my plea I said "NOT GUILTY" I didn't know that this will automatically void the agreement with the prosecutor and give me only the option to request a trial. I could not change my plea, because it was on record and would be unacceptable. I have a date for trial, but my questions is what are my chances to win the case knowing that the ticket is wrong? What are my legal options here: Stay the trial because the ticket is wrong? show up at the trial and say in front of everybody that the ticket is wrong? If the option is go to trial should I request the disclosure of the evidence or it would not be necessary. Before I left the courtroom the judge advised me to look for legal advise. He also said that I do not need a lawyer to represent me at the trial. Please give your opinion on how I should proceed and what would be my chances to win. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:06 pm 
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You said that the prosecutor helped you speak to a lawyer. Did she introduce you to this lawyer?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:10 pm 
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You said that the prosecutor helped you speak to a lawyer. Did she introduce you to this lawyer?>>

Yes. She walked with me through the hallway until we found a lawyer available. Then she told the lawyer what I would need from him and she walked away right after. Weird?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:20 pm 
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Not weird. Some prosecutors and even some JPs help people by pointing out that there are truly good lawyers and paralegals that the court is very familiar with.

You got some great free advice from the lawyer. Consider following it.

Don't show up at trial. Under s. 9.1 of the POA the ticket cannot be amended if you don't show up. The incorrect fine will quash the ticket. If the JP doesn't do this, you can appeal and win.

OR you can show up to court, they will amend the fine on the ticket and find you guilty.

(p.s. try using more paragraphs in your posts!)

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Decision Notification
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:10 am 
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If I do not show up at trial would I get notified on any decision made by the JP either if the ticket was quashed or if I was found guilty?
How much time do I have to appeal if I am convicted?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:36 pm 
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If the ticket is quashed you will never here about it again. If the JP is not on the ball and convicts you, you will get a notice of conviction in the mail demanding you pay the fine. You have 15 days from that point to file an appeal. (you will also have to pay the fine or apply to the court to suspend the fine pending appeal.)

An appeal form is similar to a trial request form and is not complicated (name, address, etc.).

Hopefully you'll get a competent JP and won't have to deal with that.

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Conviction notification - Which fine would be applied
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:59 pm 
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If I am convicted and therefore I have to pay the fine, which value it would be: The correct value, which implies that the JP has amended the set fine value or the wrong set fine that is in the ticket? If I will not appear to the trial then the JP could not amend the ticket. Could he?

How should I write the appeal? Would it be my claim that the original set fine was wrong in the ticket and therefore it is not proper for being convicted? Should I mention any law like the POA Section 9.1. Should I mention any other cases where the same or similar situation happened and the ticket was quashed? Please help.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:14 am 
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When people wearing guns and badges made mistakes, look at what happened to the very citizen that they sworn to protect and serve.

The alleged offender has to scramble to fix the cop's mistake, what kind of a legal system is this?

The cop should be fired or the ticket should be quashed on the spot.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:39 pm 
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liveontheedge wrote:
When people wearing guns and badges made mistakes, look at what happened to the very citizen that they sworn to protect and serve.

The alleged offender has to scramble to fix the cop's mistake, what kind of a legal system is this?

The cop should be fired or the ticket should be quashed on the spot.


Yah.....get right on that one.....right beside the...
- Waiter that drops a hair in the soup
- Server that messes up what's in my coffee
- Salesperson that lies in their sale
- the fire fighters that only save foundations
- post office that loses the mail
- airliner that loses the luggage
- gas man that cuts off the gas to the wrong house
- mechanic that replace the wrong part
- bus driver that did not stop
- travel agent that sold you the vacatiopn package and you find an identical cheaper 2 days later
etc...

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:08 pm 
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[slightly o/t]
Bear,
I tend to agree with you on most counts. Everybody makes the occasional mistake. But ever since Bill 203 got passed, that occasional mistake can cost an innocent person a lot of money that they'll never get back even after being found not guilty.
Even for minor tickets, a missed bus or too much sugar in my coffee won't cost me at least $500 any way you look at it (paralegal, missed work+expenses for the d.i.y. approach or the ticket cost+insurance increase).
That is why so many people get worked up over wrong tickets and why I still hold a grudge against the TPS constable who wrongly charged me of running a red back in 2003. That one set me back $700.

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Re: Conviction notification - Which fine would be applied
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:17 pm 
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pardo9679 wrote:
If I am convicted and therefore I have to pay the fine, which value it would be: The correct value, which implies that the JP has amended the set fine value or the wrong set fine that is in the ticket? If I will not appear to the trial then the JP could not amend the ticket. Could he?

How should I write the appeal? Would it be my claim that the original set fine was wrong in the ticket and therefore it is not proper for being convicted? Should I mention any law like the POA Section 9.1. Should I mention any other cases where the same or similar situation happened and the ticket was quashed? Please help.


The JP could charge you the original amount (which is inappropriate ) or charge you the correct set fine (which is also inappropriate). Tomato, tomata. The appropriate thing to do is quash the ticket.

The relevant case to cite is London (City) v. Young, 2008 ONCA 429.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:10 am 
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Server messes with the coffee, point it out to him, he will politely say "i am sorry sir, i'll fix one up right away for you sir, and it's free". Problem solved.

In OP case, the server said "You have to pay for the coffee because you already sipped it or fill out a complain with the head office and come back in 6 months to try our bitter brand new taste "London v. Young" "


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:34 am 
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liveontheedge wrote:
Server messes with the coffee, point it out to him, he will politely say "i am sorry sir, i'll fix one up right away for you sir, and it's free". Problem solved.

In OP case, the server said "You have to pay for the coffee because you already sipped it or fill out a complain with the head office and come back in 6 months to try our bitter brand new taste "London v. Young" "


:D :D

I'll take the middle road. Was there a mistake, yes. Do we fire the officer, no. Quash the ticket, yes. Done and done. The officer needs some more training on writing down numbers.

The legal system is too complex for a simple answer and unfortunately that's what this should be, simple, bad ticky, no laundry.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:23 pm 
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Reflections wrote:
:D :D

I'll take the middle road. Was there a mistake, yes. Do we fire the officer, no. Quash the ticket, yes. Done and done. The officer needs some more training on writing down numbers.

The legal system is too complex for a simple answer and unfortunately that's what this should be, simple, bad ticky, no laundry.


Have to admit some of the documents we use are very small print and jumping a line down could happen.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Like your excuse Bear.

Driver: Sorry, your worship, i did not see the white line at stop sign
JP: We all are supposed to know everyline around us when we drive, don't we?
I find you guilty and recommend driving school


Bear: Sorry, very small print, jumping down the line happens
JP: We all are supposed to know everyline around when we write, don't we?
I find you guilty and recommend grade 3 school.


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