On Jan 30th last year I was pulled over at Strachan Ave( intersection with Lakeshore W) for a rolling stop. I did my research, requested disclosure before the trial( scheduled in Nov 2010), did not receive it before the trial, went in and asked for an adjournment, obtained the written notes of the officer when I went in for the first appearance, and are now scheduled to appear again on April 1st.
* The intersection is obstructed by a panel advertising for bus shuttles. The down side is that I did not submit pics and I might not have the time to do so between now and Fri when I go in court
* when I received the officer notes, I noticed an interesting thing. He made notes on the back of the ticket with a thin pen. The notes are a drawing of a wheel with plastic hub cap and a "statement" of mine, which I apparently gave when he pulled me over. As follows: " sorry I can't make the turn, I did not see the sign for red light.
Explained not stopping"oh Im sorry I guess I didn't".
Besides being completely idiotic, I also never made such statements. I was in a state of shock and did not say anything except that I did stop and that he must have not seen me as the panel blocks the intersection.
When I was in court in Nov and he gave me the notes, I asked him about the drawing and he said it is my wheel as he needs to make sure he remembers who he pulls over and the details of their car. He also said that I admitted to the offence which is a "pretty big deal". I smiled, did not say anything and walked away. Now, when he gave me the ticket, there was nothing on the front of the ticket except the standard info:name, infraction, set fine. But in Nov, when he gave me the copy of the ticket with the back and his notes, the front of the ticket had notes in the same thin pen writing as on the back- the drawing + "my statement". Which means he added this notes after I left. Which means they could have been added long after that date and subject to recollection. Which might not be exact.
Could you please tell me if this is worth pursuing? He must have had 40 ppl pulled over on that date(they all showed up in court in Nov and pleaded guilty to a lesser offence). How can he be sure of what my statement was if he added stuff on the ticket after I left? How can I be sure it was added right away and not a month later? even a day later, with all those tickets given...
I am rambling, sorry. Could you please bring some light to this?
Notes normally made after the stop and not during the stop in my case. This is because after a ticket is served the charged person in many cases make a spontaneous utterance.
Note are qualified during testimony with a version of the following statement" The notes were made at the time of the stop or shortly thereafter by me and are to help refresh my memory but I do have an independent recollection"
The officer will testify when the notes were made.
But if he made the notes when he stopped me, I should have had them on the front of the ticket, no? But I don't, which means they were scribbled later, along with "my confession" which I never made. It is infuriating that they can say whatever they need to say and there is no way to shake that. argh...
One more issue: if I go in front of the JP and still found guilty, do they have the practice of reducing the fine/ points based on clean record, first offence, etc?
Can I ask for it?
No, Notes are on the back, or a notebook or some version of electronic notes will put them in a multitude of positions.
Contrary to what people seem to think we make our notes after . If we forget or get busy we do not create a set. All that happens is we tell the prosecutor we have no notes and ticket is withdrawn, not a big deal.
Once we are done with a stop we do not think about it down the road and go"Oh I forgot about that" and add them. We pretty much move on and do not think about them until court date or a request for notes.
I get that and it makes sense to write a little something after you have dealt with the hysterical woman who swears she stopped at the stop sign and you just did not see, lol.
But what I do not get is how come when I took copies of the back of the ticket, as part of the disclosure thing, the FRONT of the ticket also had inserted notes on ( such as "lead, followed by a toyota campy", some notes about the weather". If he had written the notes on the sopt I should have gotten the same notes on my ticket but I didn't. which makes me think: when did this guy write the notes? and if he pulled over 40 people that way, isn't it easy to mix my "statement and admission of error(which I never made) with someone else's?
I am just trying to see if that would stand in court as a valid argument. I do not what to make a fool of myself
Question has been answered twice. You can accept that or not. Notes are not standardized and EVERY officer will make as few, as many, or where ever they see fit. There is only one person who can answer that question and that is the cop who wrote them. Then it is up to the JP to render a decision.
We stop many people and for the most part do not think or dwell on the court outcome. I do not care if the charged is found guilty or not. It really has no bearing on me or my job. I get that it is the most important part of your day but to us it is not to us. You are just part of the people we deal with. We have a job to do and this is part of it.
I think you pretty much say it all in your first line. "rolling stop". You either came to a full and complete stop or you didn't. If the wheels of your vehicle are still moving at all, you haven't stopped. It may come down to how the officer articulates the evidence and the alleged statements you may have made might not even come into play if there's a trial. I'm not a big fan of relying on a spontaneous utterance for my evidence. I'd much rather rely on my training, experience and observations and let the Justice of the Peace decide.
I was charged for a rolling stop not convicted, there is a difference, no? I did come to a stop, I checked the traffic and proceeded. The intersection is obstructed by a giant panel and I am trying to get arguments to my defence. That is why we go to court, no, to prove our innocence or to avoid a conviction. The law and morality are not always hand in hand
In case I am found guilty with what I am charged (144.18), is there a chance I could get the fine/points reduced by the JP? If I say, " your Worship, I have a clean record, this is my first offence, could you consider reducing the fine, change my charge to a lesser charge"...something along those lines. Anyone has experienced or heard if it is possible? I am a bit intimidated by the fact that I either need to settle with the prosecutor or be face to face with the JP and the officer with no chance of turning back...
Please, any suggestions welcomed. Thank you.
First and foremost, the JP has no authority to waive points. This is administrative, done by MTO. When MTO finds out that you have been convicted, they will automatically apply 3 demerit points to your record. The JP can reduce the fine, but if you've been convicted, the JP can't suddenly reverse course and reduce the charge. That would defeat the purpose of having a trial.
Your only choice to get a reduced charge is to plea-bargain with the Prosecutor prior to the trial. They will usually offer you a reduced charge of something like Fail to Proceed as Directed, or something of the sort. This will give you fewer points and a lower fine. If the officer does not show up, they will probably drop the charge.
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
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