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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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144(9) - Carlaw and Lakeshore
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:18 am
Posts: 3
Location: Toronto
Just got my FIRST ticket in 20 years of driving - clean as a whistle.

Driving on a Thursday afternoon around 5pm on Lakeshore - pulled in the Esso station to get gas on Lakeshore/Carlaw.

Turned left from station on Carlaw going North, saw police car parked on Carlaw, stopped at red light. Wanted to turn right (east) onto Lakeshore - so looked for gap in rush-hour traffic. Saw gap - and made turn.

Looked behind and police car with flashing lights on pulled me over. Told me I made a right turn on red with sign indicating "no right turn on red" allowed.

To be honest - I did not notice the sign, which evidently is on the right light and not the left light facing north. Too busy watching the left light and looking for a gap in traffic as I made the turn.

I'll fight it. But would like to hear other peoples experiences.

BTW - cop humored me after seeing my record - told me to fight it and "entertain the prosecutor" since the courts are clogged.

Thx.
Joe


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:27 pm
Posts: 959
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Given this is your first ticket, the prosecutor might just give you a by-law infraction instead, which will be a fine but no demerits. Your ticket does carry 2 demerit points. Fight the ticket, wait times in Toronto are almost a year, the officer wasn't kidding.

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"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

www.OHTA.ca & www.OntarioHighwayTrafficAct.com


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:34 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:18 am
Posts: 3
Location: Toronto
Is it advisable to ask for disclosure - and pursue a stay? What are the chances that the prosecutor will plea-bargain with me and give me a "by-law infraction"?

A few friends have advised that I just get a paralegal - although it's just a 144(9), they mentioned that prosecutors want to keep their numbers of convictions up high. What would the approximate price be to get a paralegal?

And finally, who do I ask to see my record of driving?


Thx.
Joe


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:23 pm
Posts: 150
Ask for disclosure.

Go to trial, see what the Crown offers.

A. If by-law is offered and cop is there, take it.
If by-law is offered and cop is not there, your choice.

B. If no by-law offered then watch for the cop:

1. if the cop is there, ask for a delay of the trial. If no disclosure by trial day, the delay will be at the Crown's fault. If already received disclosure, find way to delay trial and hope the cop won't show up next trial day.

2. if the cop is not there, don't take crown's offer, opt to trial.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:27 pm
Posts: 959
Location: Guelph, Ontario
joezamosc wrote:
Is it advisable to ask for disclosure - and pursue a stay? What are the chances that the prosecutor will plea-bargain with me and give me a "by-law infraction"?

A few friends have advised that I just get a paralegal - although it's just a 144(9), they mentioned that prosecutors want to keep their numbers of convictions up high. What would the approximate price be to get a paralegal?

And finally, who do I ask to see my record of driving?


Thx.
Joe


Of course you have to ask for disclosure! Any ticket fought should do that!

You might as well get the paralegal to do it, especially since that means not getting the day off work and losing that revenue/vacation day. You can get a quote through the form at the bottom of a page.

Any cop can tell ya.

_________________
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

www.OHTA.ca & www.OntarioHighwayTrafficAct.com


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:18 am
Posts: 3
Location: Toronto
I just realized something as I was reading postings in the "Improper Right Turn" section.

I got a "Proceed contrary to sign at intersection, 144(9)" ticket for turning right on a red light with a sign depicting "no right on red light". The sign is the one showing a picture of a red light and a no right turn arrow.

Isn't the violation for turn right on that sign a 144(18) or a 144(19)? As I turned left from the Esso station onto Carlaw - there is a No left turn from 6am to 6pm sign. But from Carlaw right onto Lakeshore - it's definitely a picture with no right turn on red.

Cop did say I violated first sign too, but let me go on that one, but said he couldn't let me go on the second one.

Opinions or comments?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 2881
Location: Toronto
For your driving record, go to http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... cord.shtml

It's $12 for a driver record, and $18 if you want it court-certified. They'll send it to you.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:16 am 
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Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 12:43 pm
Posts: 4
Heh. Guess what? You could have also gotten a ticket for turning left out of that Esso onto Carlaw! (No left from 6:30am-6:30pm Mon-Fri) I got a ticket there earlier this year and my court case is in a week.

I am claiming inadequate signage. They have since put up more signs.

The police car was literally sitting on Carlaw with lights flashing where I was turning left. My wife and I totally didn't see the signs that were on the opposite side of the street due to all the truck traffic. We made the turn, and the cop walked up to us and gave us a ticket.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 68
The offence you committed was turn right on a red.

This sign must be at the intersection. No other variation of a no right turn on a red is valid.

Image

Moreover, the offence notice you received is also invalid. You cannot be convicted.

You cannot pay fines with phony, fake, invalid Canadian dollar bills, and you cannot be convicted because the government issued you an phony, fake invalid offence notice.

Read my "Even More Ontario Government Corruption" thread in the general section for more info if need be.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:21 am
Posts: 9
Hello Great

Could you tell me how this offense is invalid? I got the same ticket (different location) but mine doesn't even show the section number nor the chapter number. Do you have any thoughts on my ticket?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:49 pm
Posts: 1490
Location: somewhere in traffic
GC is not on the board anymore.

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