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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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144(18) - Alleged rolling stop on a red light.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Location: Ontario
I was pulled over and told I went through a red light during a right turn. I learned through a friend who is a police constable that the one who pulled me over is new to the job (under a year, and possibly even the first month or two of real duty).

I was given a ticket for $180. I have some questions:

(1) Is this offense automatically associated with 3 demerit points? I see no mention of them on the ticket, but is that understood for a 144(18) charge?
(2) I have been driving for over 10 years with a perfect record. How significantly will this affect my insurance rate?
(3) Do the demerit points stay on your record for three years after the ticket is written or three years after the date of conviction?
(4) Is it worthwhile to plead not-guilty or is there any technique that may be beneficial for me, perhaps utilizing the services of POINTTS?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:28 pm 
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Location: Guelph, Ontario
1. Yes, this offense "awards" you 3 points. The tickets never tell the number of points.

2. You'll likely see it on your bill. Maybe extra $200 per year, for 3 years. However, ***SOME*** companies let the 1-st one like that slip.

3. It is 2 years after the date of conviction. Say you pay today - you're guilty today, the clock starts ticking down. The offense stays on your record for life though, but for insurance purposes it is 3 years after conviction.

4. Yes! That's what we are here for!
What you want to do is file the ticket as "not guilty" (option 3 checked off), check "Officer present" on the ticket. Once you get a court date, file for disclosure. Read ticketcombat's site, there is lots of info there to start you off!

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"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

www.OHTA.ca & www.OntarioHighwayTrafficAct.com


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:41 am 
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racer wrote:
The offense stays on your record for life though


*gulp*, for LIFE? Is there no way to request a pardon of some sort? Even a murder charge does not stay on for life! :shock:

It was a rolling stop on a red light ticket, allegedly ;) I really don't want this flaw on my record. I have no record of any sort and in fact only got my first ever parking ticket within the past year.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:22 am 
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Location: somewhere in traffic
helpticket wrote:
racer wrote:
The offense stays on your record for life though


*gulp*, for LIFE? Is there no way to request a pardon of some sort? Even a murder charge does not stay on for life! :shock:

It was a rolling stop on a red light ticket, allegedly ;) I really don't want this flaw on my record. I have no record of any sort and in fact only got my first ever parking ticket within the past year.


Every ticket stays on your record. Don't worry, 1 is not huge.......no that I have more then that......ahem. :oops:

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http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:55 pm 
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Location: Guelph, Ontario
helpticket wrote:
racer wrote:
The offense stays on your record for life though


*gulp*, for LIFE? Is there no way to request a pardon of some sort? Even a murder charge does not stay on for life! :shock:

It was a rolling stop on a red light ticket, allegedly ;) I really don't want this flaw on my record. I have no record of any sort and in fact only got my first ever parking ticket within the past year.


It's a traffic ticket we are talking about. US Customs won't hassle you at the border if you have a red light. The only thing it affects is the break the next officer will be willing to give you...

Insurance will stop caring about the ticket 3 years after conviction.
MTO will stop caring about it and erase the points after 2 years.

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"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

www.OHTA.ca & www.OntarioHighwayTrafficAct.com


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red light ticket
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:25 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Toronto
The Red Light ticket the officer gave you has 3 demerit points on it.

If you pay the ticket it will go on your driving record for 3 years to which your insurance company has access to and can base your insurance rate on.

Its a particularly bad ticket because your insurance company will perceive that your driving through intersections against the traffic lights and likely to be involved in an accident, thereby increasing your insurance rates.

Its important to make sure you fight it.

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Chris Conway
Retired Toronto Traffic Officer, Hit & Run Squad Detective,
Breathalyzer Tech, Radar/Highway Patrol
Licenced Paralegal


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Re: red light ticket
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:25 pm 
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OTTLegal wrote:
The Red Light ticket the officer gave you has 3 demerit points on it.

If you pay the ticket it will go on your driving record for 3 years to which your insurance company has access to and can base your insurance rate on.

Its a particularly bad ticket because your insurance company will perceive that your driving through intersections against the traffic lights and likely to be involved in an accident, thereby increasing your insurance rates.

Its important to make sure you fight it.


I really hope I have some chance of winning it...

The cop is a rookie so I hope he is unaware of some of the legal procedures.

I'm REALLY worried about this ticket, my future, and my ability to travel to other countries after receiving this ticket.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:47 pm 
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Posts: 68
You have not been charges properly. The ticket you were issued is invalid thus they is no valid proceeding before the court. You cannot be convicted and even if they convict you then you will win your case on appeal.

S. 8 of the POA allows you to settle out of court by pleading guilty and paying the set fine.

Quote:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK165

Payment out of court

8. (1) Where an offence notice is served on a defendant who does not wish to dispute the charge, the defendant may sign the plea of guilty on the offence notice and deliver the offence notice and amount of the set fine to the office of the court specified in the notice.


Now look at the ticket you were issued. It tells you that in order to settle out of court you must pay the total payable. The toal payable includes a victim surcharge fine and a court cost fine. They're trying to rip you off.

The ticket form is invalid. It is not in compliance with the law; POA s. 8.

You have choices on hiw to proceed. You can just ignore the ticket all together and after they convict you you will appeal and point out the error and win your case.

Or, you can request a trial and once in court, prior to pleding not guilty, you will make a motion for the justice to quash your charge due to the same error described above.

If the justice refuses to quash your proceeding, then you'll end up being convicted and again you will win on appeal. The justice will try and tell you that he has the power to amend the ticket but he's full of *EDIT*. He might offer you an adjournment. Say no. There is no valid proceeding before him so he cannot amend anything, and besides not only is the sum of money incorrect the written instruction errors on the ticket is preprinted so he cannot amend that anyway.

Which ever way you proceed, you'll win, and if you don't you'll prove that I'm not the Greatest Canadian.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:08 am 
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Greatest Canadian wrote:
You have not been charges properly. The ticket you were issued is invalid thus they is no valid proceeding before the court. You cannot be convicted and even if they convict you then you will win your case on appeal.

S. 8 of the POA allows you to settle out of court by pleading guilty and paying the set fine.

Quote:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK165

Payment out of court

8. (1) Where an offence notice is served on a defendant who does not wish to dispute the charge, the defendant may sign the plea of guilty on the offence notice and deliver the offence notice and amount of the set fine to the office of the court specified in the notice.


Now look at the ticket you were issued. It tells you that in order to settle out of court you must pay the total payable. The toal payable includes a victim surcharge fine and a court cost fine. They're trying to rip you off.

The ticket form is invalid. It is not in compliance with the law; POA s. 8.

You have choices on hiw to proceed. You can just ignore the ticket all together and after they convict you you will appeal and point out the error and win your case.

Or, you can request a trial and once in court, prior to pleding not guilty, you will make a motion for the justice to quash your charge due to the same error described above.

If the justice refuses to quash your proceeding, then you'll end up being convicted and again you will win on appeal. The justice will try and tell you that he has the power to amend the ticket but he's full of *EDIT*. He might offer you an adjournment. Say no. There is no valid proceeding before him so he cannot amend anything, and besides not only is the sum of money incorrect the written instruction errors on the ticket is preprinted so he cannot amend that anyway.

Which ever way you proceed, you'll win, and if you don't you'll prove that I'm not the Greatest Canadian.


This is the best post ever! I have had the most stressful week of my entire life after getting this ticket and this is a huge relief.

Has anyone tried this method with success?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:38 pm
Posts: 632
Location: Stratford, Ontario
helpticket wrote:
Greatest Canadian wrote:
You have not been charges properly. The ticket you were issued is invalid thus they is no valid proceeding before the court. You cannot be convicted and even if they convict you then you will win your case on appeal.

S. 8 of the POA allows you to settle out of court by pleading guilty and paying the set fine.

Quote:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK165

Payment out of court

8. (1) Where an offence notice is served on a defendant who does not wish to dispute the charge, the defendant may sign the plea of guilty on the offence notice and deliver the offence notice and amount of the set fine to the office of the court specified in the notice.


Now look at the ticket you were issued. It tells you that in order to settle out of court you must pay the total payable. The toal payable includes a victim surcharge fine and a court cost fine. They're trying to rip you off.

The ticket form is invalid. It is not in compliance with the law; POA s. 8.

You have choices on hiw to proceed. You can just ignore the ticket all together and after they convict you you will appeal and point out the error and win your case.

Or, you can request a trial and once in court, prior to pleding not guilty, you will make a motion for the justice to quash your charge due to the same error described above.

If the justice refuses to quash your proceeding, then you'll end up being convicted and again you will win on appeal. The justice will try and tell you that he has the power to amend the ticket but he's full of *EDIT*. He might offer you an adjournment. Say no. There is no valid proceeding before him so he cannot amend anything, and besides not only is the sum of money incorrect the written instruction errors on the ticket is preprinted so he cannot amend that anyway.

Which ever way you proceed, you'll win, and if you don't you'll prove that I'm not the Greatest Canadian.


This is the best post ever! I have had the most stressful week of my entire life after getting this ticket and this is a huge relief.

Has anyone tried this method with success?


Carefull! GC has some grand ideas, but nothing proven in court. I would PM him and ask if he'll represent you throughout the process and post the results so the rest of us can learn.

As for your insurance question, every carrier will have different rules. Here's a list of questions I asked MY carrier and I base my decisions re. ticket options on his answers.
http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic911.html


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:14 pm
Posts: 109
Location: Caledonia, Ontario
Greatest Canadian wrote:
... judges are not "honourable, they are ... Scum of the Earth ... most JPs are ... Scum of the Earth ... most crowns are ... Scum of the Earth ... most cops are simply cement heads.


Well, I guess that about covers it. The police seem to get off lightly.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:45 am
Posts: 709
Location: Orillia
Phew, good thing I'm taking the LEO route instead of law school. Could have been a disaster. :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:42 am 
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Location: Ontario
If I go to the Justice of the Peace and give him a sob story which is actually a true one, can he throw out the ticket or allow me to take a driver's re-education course or anything along those lines? I don't care about paying money, I just don't want to have a record.

What is the absolutely most intelligent thing I can do from a sheerly probability perspective at this point?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:55 am 
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Location: Ontario
1. Does the Justice of the Peace have the power to throw out a ticket?

2. If a police officer does not tell me about demerit points, is that a fatal error? He did not inform me.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:27 am 
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Location: Guelph, Ontario
1. Yes. The JP can throw out tickets, quash proceedings, stay proceedings, as well as convict you :roll:

2. No. The police are not required to tell you how many points there are with your charge at all.

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"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

www.OHTA.ca & www.OntarioHighwayTrafficAct.com


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