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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Re: valid speeding defence?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Location: Ontario
tyro wrote:
I don't really get your reasoning. You admitted you were speeding, regardless of whether the limit was 50 or 60 at that point. You admitted you knew that the sign was different on both sides of the road and that your speed was in excess of both of these rates. You want to use the defense that you thought you were going 72 km/hr in a 60 km/hr zone, so you are basically admitting you are guilty.


Don’t try to apply common sense to the Highway Traffic Act, it simply doesn’t work. :wink:

Right or wrong, the OP has a possible valid defence. Whether he’s actually guilty of speeding is irrelevant in the Courts eyes if the charge itself is improper. He’s entitled to try his defence, and if he’s successful, maybe that will actually be motivation for the City to fix the improper signage to prevent future confusion.


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Re: valid speeding defence?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Stanton wrote:
Don’t try to apply common sense to the Highway Traffic Act, it simply doesn’t work. :wink:

Right or wrong, the OP has a possible valid defence. Whether he’s actually guilty of speeding is irrelevant in the Courts eyes if the charge itself is improper. He’s entitled to try his defence, and if he’s successful, maybe that will actually be motivation for the City to fix the improper signage to prevent future confusion.


This is exactly how I feel. the post by tyro you responded to doesn't take into account i'm not walking into court telling them i was speeding at 72km/h in a 50 or 60 zone. I'm going in proving the ticket he gave me saying its a properly posted 50km/h zone when its really an improperly posted 60km/h zone.
My speed at the time is not what i'm worrying about. It's a real piss off that in an area where the signage is messed up and its a transition zone from 50 or 60 to an 80km/h zone thats where a cop hangs out.

well tomorrow i'm going to go take pictures of all the speed limit signs.
i've attached the officers notes i got from the prosecutor can anyone figure out the stuff thats not self explanitory?


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Re: valid speeding defence?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:47 am 
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gabe wrote:
It's a real piss off that in an area where the signage is messed up and its a transition zone from 50 or 60 to an 80km/h zone thats where a cop hangs out.

there are absolutely NO transition zones when the speed limit increases. Just b/c one can see a sign or knows about a sign 300m or 1000m ahead does not make it legal to just stomp on the throttle... The limit begins AT the sign which will say "begins"

Transition zones are used when going from higher speeds to lower speeds and everyone of those work properly...at sign saying *blank* zone ahead and if a vehicle is at the speed limit and dont touch fuel the vehicle will slow to the proper speed at the "begins" sign.

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Re: valid speeding defence?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:15 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
gabe wrote:
It's a real piss off that in an area where the signage is messed up and its a transition zone from 50 or 60 to an 80km/h zone thats where a cop hangs out.

there are absolutely NO transition zones when the speed limit increases. Just b/c one can see a sign or knows about a sign 300m or 1000m ahead does not make it legal to just stomp on the throttle... The limit begins AT the sign which will say "begins"

Transition zones are used when going from higher speeds to lower speeds and everyone of those work properly...at sign saying *blank* zone ahead and if a vehicle is at the speed limit and dont touch fuel the vehicle will slow to the proper speed at the "begins" sign.


i agree with you for sure regarding the fact of what ever the speed limit is, is what the speed limit is until you pass a sign that says XXkm/h begins. My point was just that the cop hangs out at an area where the speed limit goes up, because people are more likely to be caught speeding due to the fact there is a speed limit increase ahead.
From a business point of view of the police it will ensure a higher % of tickets earning them more money. from a public safety point of view unless the road conditions are bad or someone is speeding recklessly , i don't think 20 over is dangerous, although I know the law is the law and if you break it no matter what the conditions are you are at fault.
just out of curiosity if you are going the speed limit, say on the 401 100km/h, and the road conditions are horrible ice or snow, could a cop give you a ticket for speeding? or would they have to give you the ticket for something else, like careless driving?


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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Location: Ontario
You could only be charged with speeding if you exceeded the actual posted limit. Driving too fast for the conditions could result in a careless driving charge, though there would have to be sufficient evidence to support this.


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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:17 am 
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from what i have right now from the officers notes, there is nothing that shows his radar test before and after his shift. Also he wrote nothing regarding traffic around me at the time he pulled me over.
if when i receive what should be proper disclosure, if it does not include notes showing that the radar gun was properly tested before and after the time he pulled me over, or it does not indicate whether there were other cars around at the time, should I go ahead and use one of those as my defense?

what are some common types of defense that actually work in speeding ticket cases? I have a little over a month before my trial date, and i'm trying to figure out what exactly my best defense would be.
also if i don't get the full disclosure until a few days before court can I re-schedule my court date? and maybe by re-scheduling a few times i can create confusion and maybe the officer might get miss informed or confused and not show up to court on the correct day? i'm just trying to think of things to do. Maybe this doesn't make sense or maybe it has been tried before, if anyone has any input it would be appreciated.


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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:52 pm 
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Take a look on CanLII. There are several cases which are pretty clear that the testing times must be noted. Can't recall them right now but that should help your case...

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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:18 pm 
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as of right now what I have going for me is that the opposite direction on the road has posted signs that say I was in a 60km/h zone. I'm not sure how to go about fighting not the fact i was speeding but that the charge was improper.
should i try to create a motion to quash the ticket because of improper charge before the plea of not guilty or should I plead not guilty then when I get to cross examine the officer ask him questions regarding if he know what the speed limit is in that zone?

basically i'm fighting the fact its not a 50km/h zone. should I go try to get something done before I enter a plea or enter the not guilty plea and go through the proceedings regularly and make the officer look silly like he doesn't even know what the speed limit is in an area he's handing out speeding tickets?


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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:47 am 
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Linky:

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight. ... 26961.html

Lots of references to most of the major speed cases

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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:57 am 
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gabe wrote:
basically i'm fighting the fact its not a 50km/h zone. should I go try to get something done before I enter a plea or enter the not guilty plea and go through the proceedings regularly and make the officer look silly like he doesn't even know what the speed limit is in an area he's handing out speeding tickets?

won't make the officer look silly at all....it is plainly visible and properly posted as a 50km/hr zone in the direction you were travelling!!
if anything, once someone learns of the discrepancy in the other direction for the 200m or whatever distance the 60km sign in the opposite direction will be changed out to a 50km sign

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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:41 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
gabe wrote:
basically i'm fighting the fact its not a 50km/h zone. should I go try to get something done before I enter a plea or enter the not guilty plea and go through the proceedings regularly and make the officer look silly like he doesn't even know what the speed limit is in an area he's handing out speeding tickets?

won't make the officer look silly at all....it is plainly visible and properly posted as a 50km/hr zone in the direction you were travelling!!
if anything, once someone learns of the discrepancy in the other direction for the 200m or whatever distance the 60km sign in the opposite direction will be changed out to a 50km sign


The key words you stated are "in the direction you were travelling!!" If you don't think when I tell a JP I travel the road daily and know its a 60km/h road on the Northbound side, and I was confused because there are no speed limit signs indicating the speed should be any different, on the Southbound side of the road within the 60km/h zone you are crazy. At worst I'm going to get charged with doing 12km/h over the speed limit. I'm fine with that.
I know speeding is a strict liability offence and I practiced due diligence by ensuring I was not traveling at an excessive speed for a 60km/h zone.
As for your comments about the sign discrepancy first off I've written down a list of all 80km/h zone I can think of in the city. Not one of 80km/h zones is preceded by a 50km/h zone they are all 60km/h zones, that transition to 80km/h.
If anything happens as a matter of this case the 60km/h speed limit signs will be properly posted for the Southbound lanes, due to the reasoning above. No where will you find an 80km/h zone transition directly to a 50km/h zone, that not safe due to a drastic difference in high to low speeds.


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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:05 pm 
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gabe wrote:
No where will you find an 80km/h zone transition directly to a 50km/h zone, that not safe due to a drastic difference in high to low speeds.

there are hundreds of 80-50 zones.
County Rd 46 (South Woodslee), just street view near 1612 County rd 46, South Woodslee, can see both signs 50 and the 80, plus that area also adds in a community safe zone in the 50....continue east and another same thing is at Comber 80 drops to 50

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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:52 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
gabe wrote:
No where will you find an 80km/h zone transition directly to a 50km/h zone, that not safe due to a drastic difference in high to low speeds.

there are hundreds of 80-50 zones.
County Rd 46 (South Woodslee), just street view near 1612 County rd 46, South Woodslee, can see both signs 50 and the 80, plus that area also adds in a community safe zone in the 50....continue east and another same thing is at Comber 80 drops to 50


this is all great but that area is not within the city of Windsor. I meant within the city. Out in the county where traffic is much less dense it wouldn't make as big of a safety concern.


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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:56 pm 
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There is no due diligence defence for speeding.

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Re: Different speed limits on each direction of the road
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:45 pm 
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i received disclosure for my speeding 72 in a 50. i have posted what i received. a single page with a few lines in point form. no where on the page did it state his radar equipment was tested prior and/or after i was stopped.

if its not on the disclosure when in trial can the officer verbally state yes the radar was tested before and after traffic stop? the stop happened at 8:48am on a saturday morning.I learned it was a veteran traffic cop in the city who gave me the ticket. is it reasonable to think maybe he didn't test it before he gave me the ticket and thats why there is no notes of radar testing?


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