This seems like a slightly grey area so I decided to challenge the ticket for now instead of completely ignoring it, in order to give me a little more time to decide and get advice on if this will be seen as a fatal error or not. I have a court date coming up SOON and have also filed for disclosure in the mean time just in case, but if this is a fatal error then I should not go to the court date and hope the JP catches it (or appeal it if they don't) See the picture attached, section 12 "E" does not exist in the HTA, there is however a 12 (1) (e) which refers to violation to a "number plate violation", specifically: (e) uses or permits the use of evidence of validation upon a number plate displayed on a motor vehicle other than evidence of validation furnished by the Ministry in respect of that motor vehicle Of course the officer meant to write "8" and not "E", but it clearly looks like an "E" and not an 8. --- Let me know what you think here, the old posts I found, case law found, and ticket combat site all don't seem to specify whether or not this is fatal though it seems to mostly point to yes, it is? I think some cases with incorrect HTA have gone either way IIRC... TIA
This seems like a slightly grey area so I decided to challenge the ticket for now instead of completely ignoring it, in order to give me a little more time to decide and get advice on if this will be seen as a fatal error or not.
I have a court date coming up SOON and have also filed for disclosure in the mean time just in case, but if this is a fatal error then I should not go to the court date and hope the JP catches it (or appeal it if they don't)
See the picture attached, section 12 "E" does not exist in the HTA, there is however a 12 (1) (e) which refers to violation to a "number plate violation", specifically:
(e) uses or permits the use of evidence of validation upon a number plate displayed on a motor vehicle other than evidence of validation furnished by the Ministry in respect of that motor vehicle
Of course the officer meant to write "8" and not "E", but it clearly looks like an "E" and not an 8.
---
Let me know what you think here, the old posts I found, case law found, and ticket combat site all don't seem to specify whether or not this is fatal though it seems to mostly point to yes, it is? I think some cases with incorrect HTA have gone either way IIRC...
TIA
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Personally I don't think this one will float. It looks like an incomplete 8. You will have to argue it is an E in your (likely unsuccessful) appeal. You could get lucky some JPs are former teachers who are just itching to punish former students for poor penmanship. Before you put your hopes on this Hail Mary review disclosure. Other thoughts?
Personally I don't think this one will float. It looks like an incomplete 8. You will have to argue it is an E in your (likely unsuccessful) appeal. You could get lucky some JPs are former teachers who are just itching to punish former students for poor penmanship. Before you put your hopes on this Hail Mary review disclosure. Other thoughts?
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error? As I mentioned in the OP, it seems very grey, and I think I seen cases go either way, so it would be interesting to know what the actual law is regarding this Thanks again
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error?
As I mentioned in the OP, it seems very grey, and I think I seen cases go either way, so it would be interesting to know what the actual law is regarding this
There's a lot of appellete decisions that already dealt with this. A quick CanLII search will return a plethora of decisions https://www.canlii.org/en/on/#search/jI ... raffic+act R. v. Stuparayk and Firminio, 2009 ONCJ 394 (CanLII) Recently Justice Libman in R. v. Mirza, 2013 ONCA 363 (CanLII) dropped a bombshell when he wrote It's being dealt in the Appeal Courts atm.
jayjonbeach wrote:
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error?
R. v. Maniccia [2004] O.J. No. 5566 (Ont. Ct. Justice)
police charged the defendant with "fail to yield to traffic on through highway" and incorrectly stated the section number as s. 136 (1) (a), which is the offence of failing to stop at a stop sign, instead of the correct section, s. 136 (1) (b). Nevertheless, the Justice of the Peace convicted the defendant under s. 9.1. The defendant appealed and Bennett J. allowed the appeal and quashed the conviction. He held that the Justice of the Peace erred in registering a conviction under s. 9.1 because the citing of the wrong section number resulted in the Certificate not being "complete and regular on its face".
R. v. Bargis [2004] O.J. No. 5565 (Ont. Ct. Justice)
Armstrong J. allowed the defendants appeal from a conviction under s. 9.1 because the Certificate of Offence cited the wrong section number. The police charged the defendant with "driver fail to wear complete seatbelt assembly" and stated the section number incorrectly as s. 106 (2) instead of s. 106 (3). In allowing the appeal the court held at paragraphs 11 and 12 that:
As Justice Daudlin noted in Regina v. Baldasare, [2000] O.J. No. 5515, November 9, 2000, Doc. Windsor 00-CR-05944 Ont. S.C., some of the information for which there are boxes to be completed on the certificate of offence is surplusage, which "in no way confuses or in any manner raises the issue of the notice being inappropriate, incomplete or in any manner failing to meet the necessities of the legislation." Therefore, the omission of the words "Ontario" or "of Ontario" from the description of the Highway Traffic Act would also appear to me to be surplusage that would not require a quashing of the information.
However, in this case the section number contained an error. It specifically stated s. 106(2) instead of 106(3). I find that this error was something that was in conflict with the description, and cannot be said to be - and here I am quoting Justice Daudlin's phrase, "surplusage" [which] "in no way confuses." I find that the conflict was something which could not be said to in no way confuse. And given the scheme of the Provincial Offences Act and the premium that is put on the form in the context of default conviction proceedings, this conviction cannot stand. (Emphasis Added)
[13] The appeal judge dismissed the appeal for three reasons:
1. the original certificate of offence would have been complete and regular had there been no reference to a section number of the HTA;
2. despite the reference to s. 128, no one would have been misled by the nature of the offence in light of the description "Red Light - Fail to stop" on the certificate;
3. any change made to the section number on the face of the ticket would not invalidate the ticket or constitute a formal amendment.
I guess that is exactly where things stand then, one big grey area for now, and a cr*p shoot, damn I am torn on this. Very interesting case that last one thanks for posting. The fact that the ticket was changed without the defendant present alone should have got the appeal granted, as I am quite sure that is against the rules, and it looks like the representative did NOT make a strong case about it even failing to cite case law in their favour, and yet he had time to prepare too. Worse, due to his shoddy representation we might see a new precedent coming down the pike
I guess that is exactly where things stand then, one big grey area for now, and a cr*p shoot, damn I am torn on this.
Very interesting case that last one thanks for posting. The fact that the ticket was changed without the defendant present alone should have got the appeal granted, as I am quite sure that is against the rules, and it looks like the representative did NOT make a strong case about it even failing to cite case law in their favour, and yet he had time to prepare too. Worse, due to his shoddy representation we might see a new precedent coming down the pike
The fine is not the issue but I am worried about insurance rates. First speeding ticket in my life Any suggestions on how to handle this? I can't afford to spend a day at the court
So was at court today in Orillia for a friend, and I had submitted a couple notice of motion a couple weeks ago that I wanted to deal with before arraignment. I met with prosecutor before hand, and it went something like this:
Prosecutor: "Do you have the case law?"
Me: "What do you mean?"
Prosecutor: "Do you have the case law for your motion?"
Me: "All the case law is quoted in the motion that I…
1)failure to change address on license (i got married a couple of months earlier and moved)
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I got pulled over because I had 2 letters peeling off my license plate. I know ignorance isn't a defense, but I really had no idea that this was an issue. Plus, you see many cars on the road with peeling plates. I got both tickets and…
I was driving around 140km/h on a 100km/h posted on the highway. I was in the fast lane. The officer was very nice and reduced it to no points and just 15km/h over.
I only have my G2.
1. Will this affect me taking the G test next month?
2. I am very grateful for the officer lowering the ticket... should I just pay the 52.5$ and leave it as is.. I am a secondary driver under my dads name and we have…
Hi, thanks in advance for the help. Been driving for 10 years, clean record until today when I got slapped with two tickets. First: going 135 at 100 on the 401, second: not having a valid sticker (I recently moved and completely forgot about it)
My friend tells me I should fight the speed ticket, if anything to reduce the fine and points. Would be alot of help if anyone could walk me through…
My wife, who has never had a traffic ticket in her life, just got 11 points.
Two tickets: "following too closely" and "failure to stop"
She was on a residential street and was behind a car at a crosswalk waiting for a pedestrian. Pedestrian crossed, they continued. Cop was drivig towards them down a side street , and as they passed he went after my wife.
I was driving in mid lane and was following a line of cars around speed limit.
The vehicle in front of me was large and I decided to change to the left lane to get better line sight.
As soon as I entered the left lane, I saw the car in front of me approximately 200m away stopped dead (for some odd reason, there was more traffic on the left lane).
Over the last few months I have received several parking tickets from the City of Kitchener. I haven't paid any of them and have attempted to dicuss the situation with the parking authority of the City, however, they're very unreceptive and defensive.
I work at a downtown construction site....ironically a Court House. The site takes up a whole city block, of which ONE side has 2 hour parking…
I was driving on a teusday night in the rain and fog at whites and highview by St. Mary CSS in Pickering, ON. At the time I was waiting at a red light to make a left north onto whites. There was also a car on the opposite side of the intersection making a left. The cars beams were pointed almost directly at my face and as a result, with the combination of the rain and fog, I…
I am new to this website and this is my first post so please forgive me if I've put this question in the wrong place. Please bear with me until I learn the ropes a bit.
So here are my questions:
Antique cars and hot rods (1930's- early '60's) and seat belt use in Ontario. If these vehicles never came from the respective factories with any seat belts, do they have to be retrofitted ?
OK so Jshreck has been taking some heat for the concept of providing the DL as being not required and therefore inadmissable in court. Personally, I think that argument would fall on deaf ears in the lower court and any chance at victory would have to be in the highest court. That would be quite something. When pigs fly I think, but along that line of thought, allow me to continue.......
I have a court date soon and am wondering whether the officers just read off their disclosure notes when interrogated.
Basically, according to the disclosure notes and the said distances and speeds quoted, by doing some simple math it just doesn't add up. My concern is whether the officer can change his story when on the stand after maybe realizing this?
Last week I was driving home from college in the sauga area. I drive a 1995 Chevy Monte Carlo v6 which I've owned since 2000, I really haven't done anything to the car except tinted windows (not completely darken) and some rims, and Nothing Engine wise. Anyway I look in my rear view mirror and out of no where i see cherry flashing. When pulled over the officer asked do you…
I was charged 2 days ago with RED LIGHT - FAIL TO STOP and set fined $150 and I guess 3 points. I was driving turning left on the intersection with a traffic light, and when I jst about to turn left the light turned to orange and I didn't have enough time to stop. Once I turned I saw the light turned to red and 2seconds later I saw a police beacon flashing through my rear-view mirror. It…
I figured pleading not guilty is the same as saying it was signed which is stupid. A friend of mine told me I could plead guilty with explanation and try to get the fine reduced when I come in.
So this Friday I was stopped by a local officer for going 110 in a 80zone. He also claims I was going 105 in a 50zone,which we literally passed when he stopped me as I was braking. It has been 3 days already and I can't seem to locate my ticket on their Internet site "pay ticket". Is there a way to determine if he has filed for certificate of offence to the courts? It has been 3 days I presume…
My trial date is in a couple days for a speeding ticket (york region) and i am nervous it is my first ticket ever as well as first trial
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If you look close enough, beside the drivers' side "A" pillar you will see a white circle = front antenna of Genesis radar......plus look above the dash pad...there is the Spectre RDD.