This seems like a slightly grey area so I decided to challenge the ticket for now instead of completely ignoring it, in order to give me a little more time to decide and get advice on if this will be seen as a fatal error or not. I have a court date coming up SOON and have also filed for disclosure in the mean time just in case, but if this is a fatal error then I should not go to the court date and hope the JP catches it (or appeal it if they don't) See the picture attached, section 12 "E" does not exist in the HTA, there is however a 12 (1) (e) which refers to violation to a "number plate violation", specifically: (e) uses or permits the use of evidence of validation upon a number plate displayed on a motor vehicle other than evidence of validation furnished by the Ministry in respect of that motor vehicle Of course the officer meant to write "8" and not "E", but it clearly looks like an "E" and not an 8. --- Let me know what you think here, the old posts I found, case law found, and ticket combat site all don't seem to specify whether or not this is fatal though it seems to mostly point to yes, it is? I think some cases with incorrect HTA have gone either way IIRC... TIA
This seems like a slightly grey area so I decided to challenge the ticket for now instead of completely ignoring it, in order to give me a little more time to decide and get advice on if this will be seen as a fatal error or not.
I have a court date coming up SOON and have also filed for disclosure in the mean time just in case, but if this is a fatal error then I should not go to the court date and hope the JP catches it (or appeal it if they don't)
See the picture attached, section 12 "E" does not exist in the HTA, there is however a 12 (1) (e) which refers to violation to a "number plate violation", specifically:
(e) uses or permits the use of evidence of validation upon a number plate displayed on a motor vehicle other than evidence of validation furnished by the Ministry in respect of that motor vehicle
Of course the officer meant to write "8" and not "E", but it clearly looks like an "E" and not an 8.
---
Let me know what you think here, the old posts I found, case law found, and ticket combat site all don't seem to specify whether or not this is fatal though it seems to mostly point to yes, it is? I think some cases with incorrect HTA have gone either way IIRC...
TIA
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Personally I don't think this one will float. It looks like an incomplete 8. You will have to argue it is an E in your (likely unsuccessful) appeal. You could get lucky some JPs are former teachers who are just itching to punish former students for poor penmanship. Before you put your hopes on this Hail Mary review disclosure. Other thoughts?
Personally I don't think this one will float. It looks like an incomplete 8. You will have to argue it is an E in your (likely unsuccessful) appeal. You could get lucky some JPs are former teachers who are just itching to punish former students for poor penmanship. Before you put your hopes on this Hail Mary review disclosure. Other thoughts?
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error? As I mentioned in the OP, it seems very grey, and I think I seen cases go either way, so it would be interesting to know what the actual law is regarding this Thanks again
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error?
As I mentioned in the OP, it seems very grey, and I think I seen cases go either way, so it would be interesting to know what the actual law is regarding this
There's a lot of appellete decisions that already dealt with this. A quick CanLII search will return a plethora of decisions https://www.canlii.org/en/on/#search/jI ... raffic+act R. v. Stuparayk and Firminio, 2009 ONCJ 394 (CanLII) Recently Justice Libman in R. v. Mirza, 2013 ONCA 363 (CanLII) dropped a bombshell when he wrote It's being dealt in the Appeal Courts atm.
jayjonbeach wrote:
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error?
R. v. Maniccia [2004] O.J. No. 5566 (Ont. Ct. Justice)
police charged the defendant with "fail to yield to traffic on through highway" and incorrectly stated the section number as s. 136 (1) (a), which is the offence of failing to stop at a stop sign, instead of the correct section, s. 136 (1) (b). Nevertheless, the Justice of the Peace convicted the defendant under s. 9.1. The defendant appealed and Bennett J. allowed the appeal and quashed the conviction. He held that the Justice of the Peace erred in registering a conviction under s. 9.1 because the citing of the wrong section number resulted in the Certificate not being "complete and regular on its face".
R. v. Bargis [2004] O.J. No. 5565 (Ont. Ct. Justice)
Armstrong J. allowed the defendants appeal from a conviction under s. 9.1 because the Certificate of Offence cited the wrong section number. The police charged the defendant with "driver fail to wear complete seatbelt assembly" and stated the section number incorrectly as s. 106 (2) instead of s. 106 (3). In allowing the appeal the court held at paragraphs 11 and 12 that:
As Justice Daudlin noted in Regina v. Baldasare, [2000] O.J. No. 5515, November 9, 2000, Doc. Windsor 00-CR-05944 Ont. S.C., some of the information for which there are boxes to be completed on the certificate of offence is surplusage, which "in no way confuses or in any manner raises the issue of the notice being inappropriate, incomplete or in any manner failing to meet the necessities of the legislation." Therefore, the omission of the words "Ontario" or "of Ontario" from the description of the Highway Traffic Act would also appear to me to be surplusage that would not require a quashing of the information.
However, in this case the section number contained an error. It specifically stated s. 106(2) instead of 106(3). I find that this error was something that was in conflict with the description, and cannot be said to be - and here I am quoting Justice Daudlin's phrase, "surplusage" [which] "in no way confuses." I find that the conflict was something which could not be said to in no way confuse. And given the scheme of the Provincial Offences Act and the premium that is put on the form in the context of default conviction proceedings, this conviction cannot stand. (Emphasis Added)
[13] The appeal judge dismissed the appeal for three reasons:
1. the original certificate of offence would have been complete and regular had there been no reference to a section number of the HTA;
2. despite the reference to s. 128, no one would have been misled by the nature of the offence in light of the description "Red Light - Fail to stop" on the certificate;
3. any change made to the section number on the face of the ticket would not invalidate the ticket or constitute a formal amendment.
I guess that is exactly where things stand then, one big grey area for now, and a cr*p shoot, damn I am torn on this. Very interesting case that last one thanks for posting. The fact that the ticket was changed without the defendant present alone should have got the appeal granted, as I am quite sure that is against the rules, and it looks like the representative did NOT make a strong case about it even failing to cite case law in their favour, and yet he had time to prepare too. Worse, due to his shoddy representation we might see a new precedent coming down the pike
I guess that is exactly where things stand then, one big grey area for now, and a cr*p shoot, damn I am torn on this.
Very interesting case that last one thanks for posting. The fact that the ticket was changed without the defendant present alone should have got the appeal granted, as I am quite sure that is against the rules, and it looks like the representative did NOT make a strong case about it even failing to cite case law in their favour, and yet he had time to prepare too. Worse, due to his shoddy representation we might see a new precedent coming down the pike
Hi, I am new to the forum. I have been trying to get information off of here and www.ticketcombat.com for my case.
I was given a ticket for going 122km/h in a posted 100km/h zone at Hwy 401 east at Thickson Rd in Whitby ON on April 10th, 2009.
I find this absolutely absurd, since I was in the left most lane of the 401 approximately(within 5km/h) following the speed of traffic in my lane. The guy in…
Hey this is my first ticket so as much information that people can provide will be appreciated. I was making the drive home going around 90kph(in a 80) behind what I knew was an undercover police car. The cop abruptly pulled to the side and pulled back in behind me to pull me over. Now I reduced my speed to below 80 when the cop pulled to the side but he claimed he had me clocked at 109kph and…
On Wednesday I attended court at 1530 Markham Road, courtroom E2, in order to fight my speeding ticket. My original plan was to plead not guilty, and to watch all the people who went before me, the process, the Prosecutor and the Justice Of The Peace so I could strategize and form the best plan for my defence at trial. I had done some research online and sort of knew I wanted to defend myself,…
About 5 months ago I was driving along a two-way road approaching an intersection. The road had a left/ straight turning lane and a right turning lane. There was an 18 wheel gravel truck occupying the left lane at a red light. I pulled behind the truck intending to drive straight. After not moving for about 1 second, I check my rear view mirror, signaled and changed lanes to the right…
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I've been researching for months for defence strategy and basic trial information regarding my speeding ticket. However, the information is so conflicting that I have no confidence whatsoever that I know what I'm doing.
I didn't get this info from a friend of a friend, it came from this website, court officials, case laws, and a consultation with a traffic ticket fighting company.
So I was driving east bound pulling an empty tandem trailer on a gravel highway. Eventually I caught up to a truck pulling a fifth wheel. The speed limit was 70km/h and I don't quite remember but I'm almost 100% that the guy in front of me was driving at 60km/h. After being behind him for a few kilometers and getting two cracks in my windshield from rocks off his tires, I decided to pass him. I…
I have been driving for over 10 years without any tickets and accidents what so ever. Unfortunately my luck ran out this past Friday; when the officer pulled me over doing 80 in a 50 zone in Mississauga, Ontario. Officer was very friendly and polite not to mention nice enough to reduce the charge to 15KM.
On the speeding ticket it now says doing 65km in a 50 zone. Never having a speeding…
hi everyone im just wondering if its right for a cop to have my car impounded and give me a traffic ticket for improper plates when my car didnt leave my property, yes i knew the plates werent to my car but on private property it dont matter aslong as it dosent go onto public property. am i right with this that i shouldnt have gotten the ticket or my car impounded?????????????
Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this...
Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items.
So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket…
Hi guys, I got pulled over last night and was ticketed with HTA 172, I was going 157 on a 100 on 400N and was wondering what I should do. I was using cruise control but the guy in the lane to my left was driving into my lane irresponsibly to I sped up to get ahead of him and just my luck that's when an OPP cruiser pulled up behind me flashing his lights. My court date is at the end of the month…
If anyone can answer this I would greatly appreciate it.
Friday morning I checked my mail and received a letter from the MTO stating that under section 47(1) of the HTA the Registrar of Motor Vehicles has decided to suspend my driving privilege for medical reasons. This was due to a report submitted by a physician in compliance with section 203 of the HTA. Enclosed with that letter were forms to…
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I know I shouldn't have driving but I slept at my buddies' place and I thought I was ok to drive in the morning.. needless to say I still drove and got pulled over.
Background details:
I was pulled over in the morning last week, apparently going 120 km/hr on 90km Northbound DVP. Two cop cars tailed me for a bit, saw them in my rearview mirror while on the left lane, slowed down to…
I got two tickets on Feb 20 2011. One for red light, and the other for Stop sign. I knew I had a good chance at getting off on the red light, because the officer couldn't actually see the light facing me. He was at an opposite angle, further up the street.
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I'm wondering if anyone could enlighten me on what to do about the following scenario:
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alright well to get started ive developed a passion for longboarding
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My court date is nearing at old city hall at appeals court.
iwhats going to happen and what do i do?
do I present my certificate of offence and point out to the judge the fine was incorrect, I did not appear and am now appealing on the grounds the Justice of the peace erred and failed to quash the ticket on the basis of the certificate not being properly examined and is not complete and regular on…