This seems like a slightly grey area so I decided to challenge the ticket for now instead of completely ignoring it, in order to give me a little more time to decide and get advice on if this will be seen as a fatal error or not. I have a court date coming up SOON and have also filed for disclosure in the mean time just in case, but if this is a fatal error then I should not go to the court date and hope the JP catches it (or appeal it if they don't) See the picture attached, section 12 "E" does not exist in the HTA, there is however a 12 (1) (e) which refers to violation to a "number plate violation", specifically: (e) uses or permits the use of evidence of validation upon a number plate displayed on a motor vehicle other than evidence of validation furnished by the Ministry in respect of that motor vehicle Of course the officer meant to write "8" and not "E", but it clearly looks like an "E" and not an 8. --- Let me know what you think here, the old posts I found, case law found, and ticket combat site all don't seem to specify whether or not this is fatal though it seems to mostly point to yes, it is? I think some cases with incorrect HTA have gone either way IIRC... TIA
This seems like a slightly grey area so I decided to challenge the ticket for now instead of completely ignoring it, in order to give me a little more time to decide and get advice on if this will be seen as a fatal error or not.
I have a court date coming up SOON and have also filed for disclosure in the mean time just in case, but if this is a fatal error then I should not go to the court date and hope the JP catches it (or appeal it if they don't)
See the picture attached, section 12 "E" does not exist in the HTA, there is however a 12 (1) (e) which refers to violation to a "number plate violation", specifically:
(e) uses or permits the use of evidence of validation upon a number plate displayed on a motor vehicle other than evidence of validation furnished by the Ministry in respect of that motor vehicle
Of course the officer meant to write "8" and not "E", but it clearly looks like an "E" and not an 8.
---
Let me know what you think here, the old posts I found, case law found, and ticket combat site all don't seem to specify whether or not this is fatal though it seems to mostly point to yes, it is? I think some cases with incorrect HTA have gone either way IIRC...
TIA
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. Register to view.
Personally I don't think this one will float. It looks like an incomplete 8. You will have to argue it is an E in your (likely unsuccessful) appeal. You could get lucky some JPs are former teachers who are just itching to punish former students for poor penmanship. Before you put your hopes on this Hail Mary review disclosure. Other thoughts?
Personally I don't think this one will float. It looks like an incomplete 8. You will have to argue it is an E in your (likely unsuccessful) appeal. You could get lucky some JPs are former teachers who are just itching to punish former students for poor penmanship. Before you put your hopes on this Hail Mary review disclosure. Other thoughts?
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error? As I mentioned in the OP, it seems very grey, and I think I seen cases go either way, so it would be interesting to know what the actual law is regarding this Thanks again
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error?
As I mentioned in the OP, it seems very grey, and I think I seen cases go either way, so it would be interesting to know what the actual law is regarding this
There's a lot of appellete decisions that already dealt with this. A quick CanLII search will return a plethora of decisions https://www.canlii.org/en/on/#search/jI ... raffic+act R. v. Stuparayk and Firminio, 2009 ONCJ 394 (CanLII) Recently Justice Libman in R. v. Mirza, 2013 ONCA 363 (CanLII) dropped a bombshell when he wrote It's being dealt in the Appeal Courts atm.
jayjonbeach wrote:
Does anyone know whether or not the HTA being cited incorrectly IS actually a fatal error?
R. v. Maniccia [2004] O.J. No. 5566 (Ont. Ct. Justice)
police charged the defendant with "fail to yield to traffic on through highway" and incorrectly stated the section number as s. 136 (1) (a), which is the offence of failing to stop at a stop sign, instead of the correct section, s. 136 (1) (b). Nevertheless, the Justice of the Peace convicted the defendant under s. 9.1. The defendant appealed and Bennett J. allowed the appeal and quashed the conviction. He held that the Justice of the Peace erred in registering a conviction under s. 9.1 because the citing of the wrong section number resulted in the Certificate not being "complete and regular on its face".
R. v. Bargis [2004] O.J. No. 5565 (Ont. Ct. Justice)
Armstrong J. allowed the defendants appeal from a conviction under s. 9.1 because the Certificate of Offence cited the wrong section number. The police charged the defendant with "driver fail to wear complete seatbelt assembly" and stated the section number incorrectly as s. 106 (2) instead of s. 106 (3). In allowing the appeal the court held at paragraphs 11 and 12 that:
As Justice Daudlin noted in Regina v. Baldasare, [2000] O.J. No. 5515, November 9, 2000, Doc. Windsor 00-CR-05944 Ont. S.C., some of the information for which there are boxes to be completed on the certificate of offence is surplusage, which "in no way confuses or in any manner raises the issue of the notice being inappropriate, incomplete or in any manner failing to meet the necessities of the legislation." Therefore, the omission of the words "Ontario" or "of Ontario" from the description of the Highway Traffic Act would also appear to me to be surplusage that would not require a quashing of the information.
However, in this case the section number contained an error. It specifically stated s. 106(2) instead of 106(3). I find that this error was something that was in conflict with the description, and cannot be said to be - and here I am quoting Justice Daudlin's phrase, "surplusage" [which] "in no way confuses." I find that the conflict was something which could not be said to in no way confuse. And given the scheme of the Provincial Offences Act and the premium that is put on the form in the context of default conviction proceedings, this conviction cannot stand. (Emphasis Added)
[13] The appeal judge dismissed the appeal for three reasons:
1. the original certificate of offence would have been complete and regular had there been no reference to a section number of the HTA;
2. despite the reference to s. 128, no one would have been misled by the nature of the offence in light of the description "Red Light - Fail to stop" on the certificate;
3. any change made to the section number on the face of the ticket would not invalidate the ticket or constitute a formal amendment.
I guess that is exactly where things stand then, one big grey area for now, and a cr*p shoot, damn I am torn on this. Very interesting case that last one thanks for posting. The fact that the ticket was changed without the defendant present alone should have got the appeal granted, as I am quite sure that is against the rules, and it looks like the representative did NOT make a strong case about it even failing to cite case law in their favour, and yet he had time to prepare too. Worse, due to his shoddy representation we might see a new precedent coming down the pike
I guess that is exactly where things stand then, one big grey area for now, and a cr*p shoot, damn I am torn on this.
Very interesting case that last one thanks for posting. The fact that the ticket was changed without the defendant present alone should have got the appeal granted, as I am quite sure that is against the rules, and it looks like the representative did NOT make a strong case about it even failing to cite case law in their favour, and yet he had time to prepare too. Worse, due to his shoddy representation we might see a new precedent coming down the pike
I've searched and either I'm not hitting the key words or the topic hasn't been touched on before (which I doubt, but anyway...)
Just curious how long a HTA conviction stays on record (both on MTO and insurance) and does the "clock" start from the offence date or conviction date?
I recently hit a van from behind, at a busy cross section. The reason was my lunch bag and coffee dropped to floor with a 'bang', so I did not fully stop. The police came and charge me with HTA 130 (careless driving), is this too much for me?
BTW I did not mention the coffee thing to the police since I thought this would only involve insurance company (I was hit by somebody a few years ago, the…
Got stopped for what I thought was going to be speeding, officer apparently had other ideas which needless to say surprised the heck out of me since Im positive I was not going over 150.
Ive done a LOT of reading already on here, Ticket Combat and some specific cases on Canlii (need to look up even more) and many other places but I still have some specific questions and some general ones I didnt…
Hi There , I need some direction and Im hoping that someone can point me there. I am 7 years into a lifetime suspension for 3 DUI's back in another life. About two years ago I started emailing the powers that be... ie , the Minister of Transportation , the judge that convicted me , ect ,,,,ect..... A friend of mine in the program , ( lawyer ) gave me some hope with a tribunal for appeals in…
Recently I was cited for speeding 105 km/h in a 60 km/h zone. I have two problems, firstly I am 18 and have my G2 (insurance is already expensive) and although I will likely have my G by the time this is resolved I want this to have the least impact on my insurance possible. The second and more important issue is that the officer who alleges I was speeding did not catch up to my car until I was…
I received a 141(5) left turn violation for an accident.
I was making a left turn across three lanes of traffic. The nearest two lanes were stopped for a traffic light up ahead of them and behind me. The third lane was a "right turn only" lane. As I made the turn, I saw a car pull out around the stopped traffic and enter the "right turn lane", so I stopped with my nose in the lane, but instead of…
Hi everyone I just received a ticket for parking the wrong way on the street in front of my house. There is not sign saying I have to park a certain way and I have been unable to find anything that says you have to park in a certain direction.
SO can anyone help me, I think I want to appeal the ticket but would like some advice to see if I am way off the watt with this one, or should I per sure…
Hello, i like many others a bad habit of attracting unwanted attention, and tickets. i drove a dark Eagle Talon that my girlfriend used to call a Bat-mobile. im also under 25 years old. well i drive for a living, and i want to do whatever i can to keep my abstract clean. so i sold the car, and im posting here. if anyone cares to take 5min and post your thoughts i would be delighted.
Good morning drivers, law enforcement, and traffic enthusiasts,
I recently received a ticket for "FAIL TO YIELD TO PEDESTRIAN." I was stopped at a red light in the left lane, signalling to turn left. The light turned green and as I pulled into the intersection, a pedestrian on the left crosswalk began crossing in the opposite direction. As I approached the crosswalk to complete the left turn, the…
I received a ticket on Hwy 6 North in Guelph going 90 km/h in a posted 70 km/h zone. I was clocked at 110 km/h and the officer reduced it to 90 km/h.
I requested for disclosure back in February 8th , after I received notice of trial for March 8th. The disclosure package did not get mailed, and when I went to the court on the day of trial, the clerk informed me that she had just…
I was driving past the ACC today in heavy traffic trying to eventually make the turn to go right to start my trek onto the gardiner. I had my Phone in my lap I was using it for GPS when I hear a knock on my hood. A police officer was just walking through the gridlock traffic to see who was on their phone. He immediately asked me to roll down my…
My case is a pretty 'common' one, I suppose. Nevertheless, I would like to read ideas and do some brainstorming: yesterday, after going out for dinner (about 11:00 PM ET in Oshawa) and while driving back on King Street North I noticed a police patrol following me closely. I did not attempt to speed away or anything. I simply continued my driving observing all precautions. Upon…
Hi, I'm new to this site, everyone seem really helpful to new members here. So here goes nothing.
I'm a G2 driver, aged around 20ish, male.
I got a ticket at around noon at intersection Markham road and Progress ave while I was driving my mother to work. I was going southbound on Markham road, I was going at about 70-75, I saw the approaching light and it was turning yellow and I decided to run for…
I got a speeding ticket today while I was at a stand still.
I had to stop as there was an elderly gentleman walking accross the left lane I was in. I could clearly see the speed trap up the hill as well as the en-mass brake lights from the vehicles ahead. I then accelerated up the hill and watched the speedometer. I never went above 60KM/H, speed limit is 50 I know but I'm trying to be honest.…
I'm new to the forum, and i'm not in the greatest situation...
I remember seeing a bright flash early in the morning a few weeks ago, and today i got a letter in the mail saying i ran a red light.
The problem is that i dont own the car, its my moms, and if she finds out i got the $325 dollar ticket il gonna get killed. I was lucky enough to have checked the mail today, and intercepte the…
A couple nights ago I was driving in the rain. I was at a 3 way intersection waiting to make a left turn. When i got the advanced green (may have just been a green light) I went and I didn't see any pedestrians. I proceeded to go but at the very end of my turn I saw someone walking towards my car. I abruptly stopped and triggered my abs brakes. When that happened it was too late, the pedestrian…
I've searched for hours looking for a similar situation to mine on a number of forums, and I couldn't come up with anything close. I know I need to file for disclosure tomorrow (my court date is October 7th), and plan to do so regardless of what else I end up doing, but I could really use some help with this one.
I was arrested on private property after being watched and stalked for over two hours…
I was driving down a two lane road, in the left lane. As I approached a construction zone, the two lanes merged into one. There was a sign that said the right lane ends, BUT this sign was incorrect. It was the left lane that ended.
Unfortunately I was driving according to what the sign said, and improperly continued into the right lane. This lead to me almost colliding into a bus.
I was given a ticket fail to obey stop sign. I was too far back from the white line. He has it on video that I was not at the white line - but he could not see exactly how far behind the white line I was because a big pine tree was in the way. It was dark, and I have a black car.
There was a car in front of me that duped me because he stopped - then pulled forward and stopped again - he was…
I got a speeding ticket back in June which I pleaded not guilty to. My main reason being that the ticket states that I committed the offence of driving at 129 km/h in a posted 90 km/h. But it was on Hwy 400 and I know it is 100 km/h.
My court date has been set. Maybe I should have researched more because reading some of these threads I see that this is not a fatal error and can be corrected in…
Hi Guys, my court date is Sept 28, 2015. Need help on whether I should plea or not. I got no evidence that I had stopped and will just be representing my self. Cop says I was speeding and ran a red light on a right turn. Both cases I told the cop I was aware of my driving and came to a stop / wasn't speeding. He issues me a caution ticket for going 120km and a ticket for fail to stop red light.…
I just had an experience where I had a cyclist ride off of the sidewalk in front of my car at a corner. I managed to stop, she went by me. She was looking backwards screaming at me and lost her balance, mostly due to the grocery bags on her handle bars. She fell in the other lane. I got out to see if she was okay. She had a scraped knee, but was fine. She said she was okay so I left. The police…