Hi Guys! I've just had my trial day yesterday. I was not at fault but was convicted anyways. It is such a travesty! There is no justice at the traffic court. It is just a no mercy machine to part someone with his money, no common sense applies and no reasonable argument being considered. Such a shame! The justice, the policeman and the prosecutor ganged up against me. The justice kept interrupting me through all cross-examination dismissing my questions and legitimate arguments. When I presented a photograph they said there is no a time stamp on it and it was not filed properly and it is not relevant because the policeman was not exactly at the spot from where the photograph was taken. The justice did not want to have a look at it and did not allow me to cross-exam the officer using the picture. Whatever the officer said is taken as a indisputable truth. Here is an example of the argument: Defendant: What was the speed of the police cruiser? Policeman: 60 km/h Defendant: How far from the intersection was the police cruiser when you spotted the defendant's vehicle? Policeman: I was very close – around 30 meters from the intersection. Defendant: For how long did you observed the defendant's vehicle before it turned right at the intersection? Policeman: One to two seconds. Defendant: Doesn't it put you right into the intersection? Policeman: No, it does not. Defendant: Do the laws of physics apply on the roads in Ontario? Justice: Defendant! You are in the court, not at school! The officer has already told you he was not at the intersection! Do you have another line of questions? And so on and on... I would strongly suggest to anybody considering fighting his/her ticket in so called "court" - don't! If the officer appeared - except the prosecutor's deal. Otherwise you have no chance!
Hi Guys! I've just had my trial day yesterday. I was not at fault but was convicted anyways.
It is such a travesty! There is no justice at the traffic court. It is just a no mercy machine to part someone with his money, no common sense applies and no reasonable argument being considered. Such a shame! The justice, the policeman and the prosecutor ganged up against me. The justice kept interrupting me through all cross-examination dismissing my questions and legitimate arguments. When I presented a photograph they said there is no a time stamp on it and it was not filed properly and it is not relevant because the policeman was not exactly at the spot from where the photograph was taken. The justice did not want to have a look at it and did not allow me to cross-exam the officer using the picture. Whatever the officer said is taken as a indisputable truth.
Here is an example of the argument:
Defendant: What was the speed of the police cruiser?
Policeman: 60 km/h
Defendant: How far from the intersection was the police cruiser when you spotted the defendant's vehicle?
Policeman: I was very close – around 30 meters from the intersection.
Defendant: For how long did you observed the defendant's vehicle before it turned right at the intersection?
Policeman: One to two seconds.
Defendant: Doesn't it put you right into the intersection?
Policeman: No, it does not.
Defendant: Do the laws of physics apply on the roads in Ontario?
Justice: Defendant! You are in the court, not at school! The officer has already told you he was not at the intersection! Do you have another line of questions?
And so on and on...
I would strongly suggest to anybody considering fighting his/her ticket in so called "court" - don't! If the officer appeared - except the prosecutor's deal. Otherwise you have no chance!
The reason you lost is simply because the testimony of the officer was more credible than any evidence you presented. If your testimony was as credible as the officers then by law you would have been found not guilty. Most of the time at trial you will not win, and the reason likely has something to do with the fact that you did it or were ill-prepared and the witness testimony is strong enough to support a conviction beyond reasonable doubt. But this being said it is by no means a rare occurrence where the defendant creates enough reasonable doubt that the crown cannot prove their case. Yes it is a hassle and the system may be stacked against you, but your best chance at a successful outcome is to be prepared and familiar with court procedure and etiquette, and case precedents.
The reason you lost is simply because the testimony of the officer was more credible than any evidence you presented. If your testimony was as credible as the officers then by law you would have been found not guilty.
Most of the time at trial you will not win, and the reason likely has something to do with the fact that you did it or were ill-prepared and the witness testimony is strong enough to support a conviction beyond reasonable doubt. But this being said it is by no means a rare occurrence where the defendant creates enough reasonable doubt that the crown cannot prove their case.
Yes it is a hassle and the system may be stacked against you, but your best chance at a successful outcome is to be prepared and familiar with court procedure and etiquette, and case precedents.
Ideally, it should be true. But in real life when the JP plays on the side of the prosecution and has no inclination to listen to the defendant's testimony you have no chance. I don't know - maybe if I was a lawyer JP would have more respectful attitude towards what I have to say but in my case my credible arguments were immediately dismissed. The fact is that officer's testimony in my case was not credible at all. But JP happily took it at the face value and did not allow me to challenge it. I brought the picture that clearly shows that because of the snow banks on the side of the road and lots of other obstacles including a car moving in the lane that obscures policeman's line of sight the policeman could not see what he was claiming he saw. The JP did not even have a look. He just stated that the police officer is trained to observe so he trust his 1 year old recollections more than the picture. JP clearly showed no interest to hear what I have to say. He stopped me when I tried to challenge officer based on math (distance = speed * time) - you are at the court not at school. He completely ignore what I said on the stand - and I said that I absolutely stopped at the stop line and after that proceeded with the right turn on red. You are alone against three of them ganged up together and one of them has to decide whether you are guilty or not. You have no chance! Just before my case that was another case with a woman who was charged for allegedly not stopping at the stop sign (and stop line). JP kind of excepted that she actually stopped but a few feet before the stop line. Guess what? She was convicted anyways because the law as prosecutor insisted and JP excepted "requires to stop right at the stop line" - not a few feet before that! Such a shame! It is all about money. Nothing but money. Justice and fairness are not welcome at this so called "court".
ynotp wrote:
The reason you lost is simply because the testimony of the officer was more credible than any evidence you presented. If your testimony was as credible as the officers then by law you would have been found not guilty.
Ideally, it should be true. But in real life when the JP plays on the side of the prosecution and has no inclination to listen to the defendant's testimony you have no chance. I don't know - maybe if I was a lawyer JP would have more respectful attitude towards what I have to say but in my case my credible arguments were immediately dismissed.
The fact is that officer's testimony in my case was not credible at all. But JP happily took it at the face value and did not allow me to challenge it. I brought the picture that clearly shows that because of the snow banks on the side of the road and lots of other obstacles including a car moving in the lane that obscures policeman's line of sight the policeman could not see what he was claiming he saw. The JP did not even have a look. He just stated that the police officer is trained to observe so he trust his 1 year old recollections more than the picture. JP clearly showed no interest to hear what I have to say. He stopped me when I tried to challenge officer based on math (distance = speed * time) - you are at the court not at school. He completely ignore what I said on the stand - and I said that I absolutely stopped at the stop line and after that proceeded with the right turn on red. You are alone against three of them ganged up together and one of them has to decide whether you are guilty or not. You have no chance!
Just before my case that was another case with a woman who was charged for allegedly not stopping at the stop sign (and stop line). JP kind of excepted that she actually stopped but a few feet before the stop line. Guess what? She was convicted anyways because the law as prosecutor insisted and JP excepted "requires to stop right at the stop line" - not a few feet before that! Such a shame!
It is all about money. Nothing but money. Justice and fairness are not welcome at this so called "court".
The JP is required to be fair and impartial. If you feel so strongly that he wasn't and you can prove it in the transcripts then I would file an appeal based on that. Appeals are heard by senior JPs who are more knowledgeable on such matters. Even if the system is corrupt for money as you claim you take comfort in the fact that your trial process likely cost 3 times whatever fine they are trying to collect from you.
The JP is required to be fair and impartial. If you feel so strongly that he wasn't and you can prove it in the transcripts then I would file an appeal based on that. Appeals are heard by senior JPs who are more knowledgeable on such matters. Even if the system is corrupt for money as you claim you take comfort in the fact that your trial process likely cost 3 times whatever fine they are trying to collect from you.
No comfort here. My ticket is $325.00. I doubt the process costs 3 times that amount. Anyway, the gang was already paid. Now they are just collecting some money back. The funny thing is as a taxpayer I am paying for their services...
No comfort here. My ticket is $325.00. I doubt the process costs 3 times that amount. Anyway, the gang was already paid. Now they are just collecting some money back. The funny thing is as a taxpayer I am paying for their services...
Guidelines for submitting photographs: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic1765.html You should just invest in a cheap HD dashcam instead; if mounted correctly... it will show that you made a complete stop behind the white stop line. If you presented that to the prosecutor, charges would immediately get withdrawn. With a decent setup, you could even show the officer by the side of the road that you did in fact stop correctly... and don't even bother with the ticket.
You should just invest in a cheap HD dashcam instead; if mounted correctly... it will show that you made a complete stop behind the white stop line. If you presented that to the prosecutor, charges would immediately get withdrawn. With a decent setup, you could even show the officer by the side of the road that you did in fact stop correctly... and don't even bother with the ticket.
The dash camera might help though I am not sure how it can show that you actually stopped at the stop line. On another hand the JP can still reject to see the video the same way he rejected to have a look to my photograph which shows clearly that the officer could not see the stop line.
You should just invest in a cheap HD dashcam instead; if mounted correctly... it will show that you made a complete stop behind the white stop line. If you presented that to the prosecutor, charges would immediately get withdrawn. With a decent setup, you could even show the officer by the side of the road that you did in fact stop correctly... and don't even bother with the ticket.
The dash camera might help though I am not sure how it can show that you actually stopped at the stop line. On another hand the JP can still reject to see the video the same way he rejected to have a look to my photograph which shows clearly that the officer could not see the stop line.
Hopeless? That's odd. In 20 years of fighting tickets I have yet to lose a trial. Yes, the cops and the crown are ganging up on you because court is an adversarial process. They're not there to be your friends and share some sympathy tea over how much stress this causes you. And while the Judge has to be impartial it doesn't mean he has to be nice. They get tired of people not understanding that a courtroom isn't law school. They're concerned with points of law that you either know or you don't. If you don't have the chops to handle it yourself than hire someone who does. Hell, talk to some law students. That or plead guilty with an explanation and get a reduced fine. If you really feel their behavior is out of line than file complaints with the Police Services Board and the Upper Canada Law Society and they'll investigate. Go take some law classes and spend some real time learning procedural rules and how to argue. There's a ton of things you can do but if you believe it's hopeless than it is. Hopeless for you, not everyone else. Plenty of posts from plenty of people on these forums prove it's far from hopeless.
Hopeless? That's odd. In 20 years of fighting tickets I have yet to lose a trial. Yes, the cops and the crown are ganging up on you because court is an adversarial process. They're not there to be your friends and share some sympathy tea over how much stress this causes you. And while the Judge has to be impartial it doesn't mean he has to be nice. They get tired of people not understanding that a courtroom isn't law school. They're concerned with points of law that you either know or you don't. If you don't have the chops to handle it yourself than hire someone who does. Hell, talk to some law students. That or plead guilty with an explanation and get a reduced fine. If you really feel their behavior is out of line than file complaints with the Police Services Board and the Upper Canada Law Society and they'll investigate. Go take some law classes and spend some real time learning procedural rules and how to argue. There's a ton of things you can do but if you believe it's hopeless than it is. Hopeless for you, not everyone else. Plenty of posts from plenty of people on these forums prove it's far from hopeless.
^ Well said. The only time it's hopeless is when the crown has their witnesses and information put together properly, and you have to sit back and take the loss. The crown and police are not there to be your friends. Crown wants to win, police don't want to look bad either. Unless it's something minor like fail to produce proof of insurance where they won't win if you show proof, they won't give up the possible conviction even if it's a reduced charge. The actual court clerks and staff are the impartial ones. That being said, there have been times when the prosecutor won't cooperate, lies and bullies. For example, my red light ticket. "Sent a 2nd disclosure request for the dash camera video. Do you have it ready?" "We're not providing it. Sit down and wait to be called up." Didn't bother arguing with the prosecutor. They've made their mind. You can't change it or get what you want that second anyway. Prosecutor didn't speak that way to the Justice though. I explained a timely disclosure request was made for video evidence, case law regarding video evidence requires that if it can significantly change the outcome of the trial, and crown withdrew the charge immediately. On the other end of the spectrum is a prosecutor I encountered at Edward St. court for parking. Checked in, and he explained that if the officer is absent my charge will be withdrawn, and if the officer is present, if I'd be willing to accept a lesser fine of $10 for a guilty plea. I agreed and the officer was absent, charge withdrawn. He was one of the most polite and proper prosecutors I've met and have the utmost respect for his professionalism. Just be very brief and articulate in your statements. Nobody there is interested in hearing a sob story or smartass remarks. You get treated much better when you show that you're knowledgeable and understand procedure.
^ Well said. The only time it's hopeless is when the crown has their witnesses and information put together properly, and you have to sit back and take the loss.
The crown and police are not there to be your friends. Crown wants to win, police don't want to look bad either. Unless it's something minor like fail to produce proof of insurance where they won't win if you show proof, they won't give up the possible conviction even if it's a reduced charge. The actual court clerks and staff are the impartial ones.
That being said, there have been times when the prosecutor won't cooperate, lies and bullies. For example, my red light ticket.
"Sent a 2nd disclosure request for the dash camera video. Do you have it ready?"
"We're not providing it. Sit down and wait to be called up."
Didn't bother arguing with the prosecutor. They've made their mind. You can't change it or get what you want that second anyway. Prosecutor didn't speak that way to the Justice though. I explained a timely disclosure request was made for video evidence, case law regarding video evidence requires that if it can significantly change the outcome of the trial, and crown withdrew the charge immediately.
On the other end of the spectrum is a prosecutor I encountered at Edward St. court for parking. Checked in, and he explained that if the officer is absent my charge will be withdrawn, and if the officer is present, if I'd be willing to accept a lesser fine of $10 for a guilty plea. I agreed and the officer was absent, charge withdrawn. He was one of the most polite and proper prosecutors I've met and have the utmost respect for his professionalism.
Just be very brief and articulate in your statements. Nobody there is interested in hearing a sob story or smartass remarks. You get treated much better when you show that you're knowledgeable and understand procedure.
Hi so I have a bizzare situation. Today I received a summons for "being the owner of a motor vehicle bearing Vehicle Identification Number ###, failed to submit the vehicle, equipment or drawn vehicle for inspection or tests as required by an officer" for a vehicle I previously owned. Apparently a violation of HTA 82(9).
The date of offense is June 15, the summons was issued on October 26th and I…
Hi, I need some help for the ticket of lmproper left turn.
When i drove my car from east to west, intending to make a left turn and stop in front of stop line. There was a car in front of me, which has turn on yellow light. The light was turning red and then I thought I cannot leave in the intersection and turned, an incoming car was runing the light and hit me. No one got hurt but both cars had…
Have a ticket in which the radar used was a Genesis VP Directional. I had downloaded the manual for a Genesis VP but I now realize that the unit is not the same so it is the wrong manual. My trial is very soon so I do not have time to ask for disclosure of the manual.
Does anyone have access to an electronic version of the manual for Genesis VP Directional?
I was pulled over today in the city of Oakville for going 75 in a 40 zone. However, I am 100 percent certain that I was going only 50 in the 40 zone. When I was pulled over, I was driving my Dad's car which I felt was the reason I was getting stopped since two teenagers driving a 2013 S Class. He asked does I know why I am being pulled over and I…
I really need help on fighting my 9 tickets i received from one police officer. Here is some background of what happened!
I was caught speeding 66km on a 40km (school zone) on January 29, 2010. I was driving my friend's car and turns out she didnt renew the validation on the vehicle and didnt leave the up to date insurance paper on the car.
Hey question that I think here's probably the best place to get the answer:
I was charged with a careless driving offence in oct, trail in early april, so as of right now my insurance record is 100% clean... except the officer did file an accident report at the scene where I was classified at fault due to it being PI (although very minor). The person I hit did not sue etc, so the insurance company…
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I was passing a vehicle that was going slow for me and there was an oncoming vehicle coming at me. I speed up to get around the person I was passing and the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop who turns around and tickets me for going 110km in a 80km zone. How does it work with passing a vehicle? Once I passed the vehicle I went back down to my original speed of just under 100. The officer…
I picked up a brand new (old stock) Fuzzbuster a while ago at auction (wopping $5!!) and I want to mount it on the dash of my old GTO as a cool accessory when I show it at car shows. But I'm not sure if it's legal or not.
Here's my thoughts:
- It is early 70's technology (x-band) so it won't detect modern police radar. That's assuming no police force uses the old x-band frequency.
Hi guys, I'm still a little in shock of getting my first traffic ticket...
On Monday afternoon, I was returning from Toronto to Ottawa on HW416, I was driving about 15 over 100 like always. Then a car came very close to me on the left lane and made me nervous, I speed up unintentionally to pass the car and change lane, but while doing that a police car pull out of the median. He was hiding in…
May i ask this question regarding transport trucks limited to 105 km/h. Moving road blocks or safety?
IMO it isnt speed that kills. I find transport trucks infact help keep the road going. With cars that choose to not move to the right and slow down the middle lane the trucks would try to pass in their passing lane therefore the slower traffic would move right.
Received a notice from the police that a motion is being put forward to adjourn upcoming trial date. Notice indicates that an officer has sworn an affidavit that the crucial witness cannot attend date trial is set for (we know there is a social engagement at 7:30 pm for the witness, trial time is 1:30 pm). This further delay is a big problem to my daughter's case. She is moving away to…
This is what happened. I was travelling west on a four lane city street that was very light with traffic. I was making a left hand turn into a wide driveway of a business. There was traffic lights about 100 yards past the driveway and were red for the east-west traffic. I was in the left lane with my signal on and there was no oncoming traffic due to the red light. I was slowed right down…
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what happens if they charge someone for driving at 151Km/hr in montreal and they put for trial, appear after some months and sadly lost the trial ?
In montreal its $300 fine and 5demerit points ...
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This weekend my father was involved in an accident with a transit bus in Burlington, ON. After the police showed up he was charged with "Fail to obey stop sign" Sec. 136(1)(a). At this particular intersection there NO stop signs but there are traffic lights. There is construction going on there so one of the light posts is smaller.
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So my boyfriend and I recently started dating. I have a vehicle that was insured. Insurance cost too much and I found it was just as easy to walk to work due to how close it was. But I didn't want to get rid of my car just yet, plus I'm still making payments on it as well. When we moved into our appartment together, I had it towed to my parking spot out back.
I was making a left hand legal turn on a green light, a driver came through the lane I was supposed to be going into ran the red and hit me head on as I was turning into my lane. When the officer came he was telling me that I was racing and driving recklessly because apparently there was reports of street racing in the area. I was not charged on the scene for this but I'm scared i am going to be…
I got a ticket for failure to surrender insurance because I did not have my new insurance stubs with me, just a bunch of expired ones. My policy number has not changed, so I asked the officer to just run the policy number so I could prove that I was in fact insured. He said they don't have that ability, handed me the ticket and reminded me that my car could have been impounded.
So I'm in a bit of a pickle and would appreciate if someone could clarify something for me.
I'm less than a month away (test on April 6th) from getting my full G license, and got a speeding ticket recently. The ticket was for 49km/h over the posted limit of 100km/h on the 403 in Oakville/Halton region, but was reduced from the initial ~60km/h over.
It is hopeless to fight a ticket at Ontario Traffic court
