Yes we won!!! We got the charges stayed! WAHOO! First before I go on, I must pause for a moment to thank each and every single one of you that helped me help my father in law successfully defeat his 2 tickets (Stunt Driving + Speeding). For a background on what happened please check here: topic2159.html
This is a long post, but I wanted to include as much info as possible so as to help anyone else in the same position.
This stunt driving law is insane, it gives the officer the right to impound your car road side and suspend your license for 7 days with out any right to a trial. This is by definition unconstitutional. Any law that puts that kind of power into a single offers discretion is just asking to be abused and it also error prone. I am so glad we choose to fight these tickets and it payed off big time!! With a lot of researching, and posts on this forum we were able to gather enough information to win. I encourage everyone in this same situation to arm yourself with the great information on this website and beat your ticket!Here is our story and path to victory.
First thing we did we request disclosure from the prosecution, this is your first step and is a MUST! We sent request every 3-4 weeks by registered mail and by fax. We had to make a total of 16 requests for disclosure before it was actually received. That was made up of 8 registered letters and 8 faxes. Perhaps we annoyed the prosecutors office and they took extra long on purpose but whatever it worked in our favor. It showed how eager we were for the disclosure and how long it took them to get it to us, and how many requests we had to make to get it. Read on to see how these came in very handy, as we used these as supporting documents in our 11B application.
Anyway, we were finally given disclosure only a couple days before the first trial and we planned to use that to our advantage on the day of trial. As it turns our the court was too busy to have his trial and we were told we would have to come back. What we did next was one of the MOST important things that help land us the victory. Knowing full well the court would not hold the trial due to time constraints, I had my father in law tell the court that he is prepared for trial right now, he's been waiting all day and he wants his trial right now, he made it very clear that it was not his fault he was not getting his trial and this was all recorded in the court transcripts which is why I had him say it.
Obviously they could not do it, but he voiced this loud and clear many times to the court and as it turns out this was the best thing we could have done. When they finally gave the final refusal to have the trial he asked that the case be dismissed since it was no fault of his own that he could not have a trial on the trial date. They refused and told him he would have to come back.
Very frustrated and annoyed we left court and came back to these forums and starting talking and learned about this magical tool called an 11B application. This is ultimately what we used to win!
I want to share our experiences going thru the 11B process as it can be fairly daunting at first glance, but I am no lawyer or Paralegal and I was able to prepare the 11B on my own and serve it properly to the right people and win this case. I have no prior law experience and am just a regular joe. All the information I found on this site was accurate but I want to point out a few things that were not correct (in our case anyway).
When serving the 11B to the various parties, the court get served LAST, from the reading I did – it said you serve the Prosecutor last, but its not the case, the court gets served last and is the final proof to the court that you served everyone INCLUDING the prosecutor.
If you have more than one day in court YOU MUST GET TRANSCRIPTS – I was not able to find this information, lucky there was a paralegal standing in line at the court house and noticed we did our own 11B and she gave us the hint that we must order transcripts, thanks to this advise we had everything we need. So if you have more than 1 appearance in court make sure to get transcripts.
We choose to serve the Attorney General of Ontario, and the Attorney General of Canada in person so that we could get their Stamp on our 11B application but I understand a fax would have also been acceptable if you keep proof of the fax. If you choose to serve them directly you MUST go to Toronto even though my father-in-law got his tickets in Richmond Hill the Attorney General of Ontario, and the Attorney General of Canada do not have offices in Richmond Hill or Newmarket etc.... you have to go to Toronto or Ottawa so you may want to fax, or leg it out like we did and make the trip to Toronto.
Now all that was left was to wait for the court date to come again but we were still unsure how the 11B worked at this point, so I want to share this information with everyone. Its important to note that the 11B application does NOT speak for you, and it does not do ALL the work for you. All the 11B does is give you proper grounds to ask the court to have your case 'stayed' so you must be prepared to present and argue your 11B.
On the day of trial the prosecutor asked my father-in-law if he wanted to make a deal and he said NO. Prosecutor tried to scare him saying how serious the charges were and what horrible things could happen and all that jazz. He stuck to his guns and refused the deal, he told the prosecutor he had a deal of his own which was to not waste the courts time and dismiss the case, naturally the prosecutor refused that deal. So we prepared for the trial. For some unknown reason they left his trial to the very end and once again ran out of time. They told him he would have to come back on another day.
Now it was time to argue the 11B! He explained to the court that the very reason it had an 11B motion was that they had already put off his trial once, that he's already been treated as guilty by having his car impounded and license suspended and this whole procedure has left him feeling very ill, and that the entire process was not constitutional. He explained that he came prepared twice for trial and now for a second time they were putting the matter over to another day. At that point the judge asked the prosecutor if they had anything to say. Immediately the reply was that its not been long enoughto warrant an 11B explaining that 7 months was a reasonable amount of time for a trial and that the 11B should be denied, to which my father-in-law replied that for him this ordeal began on the day his license was suspended and car impounded. He argued that he was denied his trial then, he was denied is first trial in court, and that he is again being denied the trial now and that any further delay in the proceedings would only further strengthen his 11B motion.
Once he said that the prosecution replied “In light of whats been said by Mr *******, I am willing to consider changing my position but I would ask that Mr ******* be arraigned” - what a sneaky move!!! Pulling out the big guns!!!! thankfully we were prepared and knew exactly what to expect during Arraignment..... essentially the clerk stands up and reads your charges aloud and asks you how do you plead, guilty or not guilty. DO NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION WHATEVER YOU DO!!!!
We were prepared and knew that we were to reply, here is what he said.“Prior to submitting a plea, your worship, I move that the proceedings be stayed on grounds that my right to be tried in a reasonable time has been violated. I have already had one scheduled trial which was adorned due to a scheduling error on the prosecutions behalf. I made it very clear on my last trial date that I was prepared and ready to proceed, the court knew I wanted to have this trial and had more than enough time to schedule time for my trial today. I have filed the necessary paperwork with the both attorney general of Canada and Ontario, I have also personally served this court and the prosecutor with my 11B motion, I have in my possession a record of this which has been officially stamped by each party. I have with me a spare copy if you need to see it.”
With that said, the judge replied that given all the scheduling errors and the fact that an 11B had been properly prepared, served and validated by the court that any further delay would surly infringe on my father-in-laws constitutional rights and that he was granting a stay of the charges!
WAHOOO!!! VICTORY !!!! We won!!! We were so excited and the people who were still in the court watching were all giving us congratulations and even one of the Paralegals that was sitting there asked if we were trained in law or paralegals ourselves. We said nope, we did our research on-line and beat this on our own. Pretty impressive and we have these forums and its members to thank!
Thank-you all so much for your kindness and willingness to share information, I really hope this post can help anyone else new to the 11B process and maybe encourage others to stand up and fight their tickets. You don't need to be a paralegal, you don't need to be a lawyer, you just need to do your homework and show up prepared. There is more than enough information on this site and ticketcombat.com to get your ticket beat.
Other tidbits of information I picked up along the way.
- Did you know the Prosecutor is not a lawyer? He/She is a regular person like you or me with just as much training – so don't think your in there fighting some lawyer with a law degree, your not, the prosecutor is a civilian like you and me!
- The 11B documents and steps on these forums and ticketcombat.com are accurate and they do work, you do not need to pay a paralegal to do it for you, there is nothing fancy just copy and paste and change the relevant information (IE: Your ticket number, your name etc....)
- When requesting disclosure NEVER put your phone number in the request for disclosure. This forces the prosecutors office to communicate with you in writing, this means you have a written record of all co-correspondence between you and them, this is important.
- Speeding tickets are a 100% liability. So if you go to court and say yes I was speeding, but I was only going 110 and not 130 – you will still be found guilty since speeding is an absolute liability – so don't do that! Instead just say you're not guilty of Speeding at 130kmphSpecial thanks to diehard for his post here: topic2952.html#p17933 which helped explain the step by step process of filing an 11B motion.