Got a speeding ticket in a 5 axle tractor trailer in November i was going northbound and as i decended down the hill towards Lawrence, behind the bridge sat a Metro Police Traffic unit. it was like 3am he claims to have clocked me 32km over. 122 in a 90. in the fine amount is $110--WRONG AMOUNT i set a date and received a notice of trial in March of 09 for August 09. now, my question is how to proceed in court with a fine amount error. can i also argue that we were both on a uneven hill is an officer considered an expert in the use of his laser radar for example? and if hes writing tickets, wouldnt he have the basic knowledge to write a proper ticket?
Got a speeding ticket in a 5 axle tractor trailer in November
i was going northbound and as i decended down the hill towards Lawrence, behind the bridge sat a Metro Police Traffic unit. it was like 3am
he claims to have clocked me 32km over. 122 in a 90.
in the fine amount is $110--WRONG AMOUNT
i set a date and received a notice of trial in March of 09 for August 09.
now, my question is how to proceed in court with a fine amount error.
can i also argue that we were both on a uneven hill
is an officer considered an expert in the use of his laser radar for example?
and if hes writing tickets, wouldnt he have the basic knowledge to write a proper ticket?
- Uneven hill makes no difference. - no such thing as "laser radar" - the officer would be an "operator" not an expert - 32 over fine amount is about $232 (guessing)
- Uneven hill makes no difference.
- no such thing as "laser radar"
- the officer would be an "operator" not an expert
- 32 over fine amount is about $232 (guessing)
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Off Camber, let me guess: The cop was just past the railroad bridge north of Wynford Drive. :shock: (DVP is part of my commute.) Just to be sure, on the ticket is says you are charged with Speeding, section 128 of the Highway Traffic Act, 122 in a 90? $110 sounds like some other offences like disobey sign or whatever... just want to be sure that your ticket definitely has a fatal error. If he did ticket you for speeding 122 in a 90, and wrote down $110 for the fine, then you can get the ticket thrown out - but it takes a bit of an unconventional approach. Check out this explanation (scroll down to "how to force a fatal error): http://www.ticketcombat.com/offences/fines.php Only a limited number of things on tickets are fatal errors. Those include missing defendant's name, missing location, missing date, missing offence or an offence not known to law, filing date beyond 7 days or incorrect set fine. You may do a double-take at what it is suggesting, not showing up to trial or not responding, but the Provincial Offences Act actually requires this (Justice must quash a ticket with a fatal error if the defendant does not respond or show up) and the existing precedent right now is that an incorrect set fine is a fatal error. Clear as mud.
Off Camber, let me guess: The cop was just past the railroad bridge north of Wynford Drive. (DVP is part of my commute.)
Just to be sure, on the ticket is says you are charged with Speeding, section 128 of the Highway Traffic Act, 122 in a 90? $110 sounds like some other offences like disobey sign or whatever... just want to be sure that your ticket definitely has a fatal error.
If he did ticket you for speeding 122 in a 90, and wrote down $110 for the fine, then you can get the ticket thrown out - but it takes a bit of an unconventional approach. Check out this explanation (scroll down to "how to force a fatal error):
Only a limited number of things on tickets are fatal errors. Those include missing defendant's name, missing location, missing date, missing offence or an offence not known to law, filing date beyond 7 days or incorrect set fine. You may do a double-take at what it is suggesting, not showing up to trial or not responding, but the Provincial Offences Act actually requires this (Justice must quash a ticket with a fatal error if the defendant does not respond or show up) and the existing precedent right now is that an incorrect set fine is a fatal error. Clear as mud.
yes. he was facing northbound behind the bridge. ive already set a court date for august 17. so under London v. Young, just dont show up and get convicted, then basically appeal? the ticket says "speeding 122km in a 90km section 128. fine is $110. happened at 3:25am. so whats the best way to proceed?
Radar Identified wrote:
Off Camber, let me guess: The cop was just past the railroad bridge north of Wynford Drive. (DVP is part of my commute.)
Just to be sure, on the ticket is says you are charged with Speeding, section 128 of the Highway Traffic Act, 122 in a 90? $110 sounds like some other offences like disobey sign or whatever... just want to be sure that your ticket definitely has a fatal error.
If he did ticket you for speeding 122 in a 90, and wrote down $110 for the fine, then you can get the ticket thrown out - but it takes a bit of an unconventional approach. Check out this explanation (scroll down to "how to force a fatal error):
Only a limited number of things on tickets are fatal errors. Those include missing defendant's name, missing location, missing date, missing offence or an offence not known to law, filing date beyond 7 days or incorrect set fine. You may do a double-take at what it is suggesting, not showing up to trial or not responding, but the Provincial Offences Act actually requires this (Justice must quash a ticket with a fatal error if the defendant does not respond or show up) and the existing precedent right now is that an incorrect set fine is a fatal error. Clear as mud.
yes. he was facing northbound behind the bridge.
ive already set a court date for august 17. so under London v. Young, just dont show up and get convicted, then basically appeal?
Bit of a lengthy response here (apologies in advance): I think the best way to proceed is to simply "not show up" for trial... but there are some risks. I believe that the law is on your side. I don't know if you're interested in reading case law (it can be kinda dry and lengthy), but this particular case describes, almost exactly, your circumstances: R. v. Leikermoser, 2008 To summarize that case: The defendant was charged with speeding 110 in an 80, given a set fine of $112.50 and total payable of $142.50, which is the wrong amount. He opted for a trial and did not show up. The JP at the first trial convicted him because he did not show up, but the Appeal Justice struck that down. The appeal ruling was that failure to appear for trial triggers the same provisions as failure to respond to the ticket, and that's backed up by a couple of other cases (City of Barrie v. Porter, and so on). The appeal ruling was that the ticket had a fatal error, even though the amount was smaller than the correct total. So, the JP at the first trial had only one option: Quash the ticket. Your ticket resembles this quite nicely actually. On the day of trial, the JP is obligated to throw out your ticket. So, you can simply ignore it and wait. Even if a conviction is entered (which isn't likely), you have grounds for an appeal. Yeah, I know - my head is spinning too. :shock: It's one option you can consider. If you don't want to jump through all of those hoops, you can always call the Crown Prosecutor and arrange for a plea-bargain to a lesser offence. (Don't accept anything higher than 15 km/h over the limit!) Most of the Prosecutors in Toronto will work with defendants to arrange some sort of reasonable agreement. You can also see if the officer shows up for trial, although that's rolling the dice. If he does show up, defending speeding charges in court, without time to get disclosure, prepare a case, etc., is as painful as a root canal. Anyway... that's my take on it. Some other members might have some other thoughts and opinions on this as well...
Bit of a lengthy response here (apologies in advance):
I think the best way to proceed is to simply "not show up" for trial... but there are some risks. I believe that the law is on your side. I don't know if you're interested in reading case law (it can be kinda dry and lengthy), but this particular case describes, almost exactly, your circumstances:
To summarize that case: The defendant was charged with speeding 110 in an 80, given a set fine of $112.50 and total payable of $142.50, which is the wrong amount. He opted for a trial and did not show up. The JP at the first trial convicted him because he did not show up, but the Appeal Justice struck that down. The appeal ruling was that failure to appear for trial triggers the same provisions as failure to respond to the ticket, and that's backed up by a couple of other cases (City of Barrie v. Porter, and so on). The appeal ruling was that the ticket had a fatal error, even though the amount was smaller than the correct total. So, the JP at the first trial had only one option: Quash the ticket. Your ticket resembles this quite nicely actually. On the day of trial, the JP is obligated to throw out your ticket. So, you can simply ignore it and wait. Even if a conviction is entered (which isn't likely), you have grounds for an appeal. Yeah, I know - my head is spinning too. It's one option you can consider.
If you don't want to jump through all of those hoops, you can always call the Crown Prosecutor and arrange for a plea-bargain to a lesser offence. (Don't accept anything higher than 15 km/h over the limit!) Most of the Prosecutors in Toronto will work with defendants to arrange some sort of reasonable agreement. You can also see if the officer shows up for trial, although that's rolling the dice. If he does show up, defending speeding charges in court, without time to get disclosure, prepare a case, etc., is as painful as a root canal.
Anyway... that's my take on it. Some other members might have some other thoughts and opinions on this as well...
Thanks for the input, and as i am aware in advance that one cannot refer to legal advice on a web page. :lol: but, as seemingly interesting as this is, the disscussion can keep going and going and I do appreciate your input (thanks for responding) moving on, I just finished read the London V. Young now, i copied the London V. Young case. do you think I can show up a half hour early, throw that on the Prosecutors desk and request it be quashed, then leave? Or, show up, not say a thing, wait for the judge to ask how i plead, then request the Judge to quash the ticket as the ticket is not true on its face? not to be a smart alleck (sp) but I already booked the day off and figured i was going to dance around the courtroom. but all aside, back to the question- can i show up, supply the crown with a copy of London V. Young, request he/she quash it, and if he/she refuses- LEAVE? how do you think this plays?
Thanks for the input, and as i am aware in advance that one cannot refer to legal advice on a web page.
but, as seemingly interesting as this is, the disscussion can keep going and going and I do appreciate your input (thanks for responding)
moving on, I just finished read the London V. Young
now, i copied the London V. Young case.
do you think I can show up a half hour early, throw that on the Prosecutors desk and request it be quashed, then leave?
Or, show up, not say a thing, wait for the judge to ask how i plead, then request the Judge to quash the ticket as the ticket is not true on its face?
not to be a smart alleck (sp) but I already booked the day off and figured i was going to dance around the courtroom.
but all aside, back to the question- can i show up, supply the crown with a copy of London V. Young, request he/she quash it, and if he/she refuses- LEAVE?
Show the prosecutor the error and the charge should be withdrawn. JP's hate time wasting so the faster the better.
Off_Camber wrote:
Thanks for the input, and as i am aware in advance that one cannot refer to legal advice on a web page.
but, as seemingly interesting as this is, the disscussion can keep going and going and I do appreciate your input (thanks for responding)
moving on, I just finished read the London V. Young
now, i copied the London V. Young case.
do you think I can show up a half hour early, throw that on the Prosecutors desk and request it be quashed, then leave?
Or, show up, not say a thing, wait for the judge to ask how i plead, then request the Judge to quash the ticket as the ticket is not true on its face?
not to be a smart alleck (sp) but I already booked the day off and figured i was going to dance around the courtroom.
but all aside, back to the question- can i show up, supply the crown with a copy of London V. Young, request he/she quash it, and if he/she refuses- LEAVE?
how do you think this plays?
Show the prosecutor the error and the charge should be withdrawn. JP's hate time wasting so the faster the better.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
Yep. Prosecutor should withdraw the charge, unless he/she is a top-calibre dingbat. I'd probably do kinda what you had in mind: Show up early, go to the Prosecutor, and ask: "Are you going to withdraw the charge?" Then if they said "no," I'd politely ask them if they're familiar with London v. Young, tell them that they're going to lose, and ask them, again, if they want to withdraw the charge or just waste a bunch of time. If they still say no, then I'd simply leave before the trial starts. But that's just me... I think they can still fix the set fine error if an actual trial occurs with you present, but I can't say with complete certainty. Anyone...? Advice on the internet is always caveat emptor, but hopefully some of the input we've given you proves useful.
Yep. Prosecutor should withdraw the charge, unless he/she is a top-calibre dingbat.
I'd probably do kinda what you had in mind: Show up early, go to the Prosecutor, and ask: "Are you going to withdraw the charge?" Then if they said "no," I'd politely ask them if they're familiar with London v. Young, tell them that they're going to lose, and ask them, again, if they want to withdraw the charge or just waste a bunch of time. If they still say no, then I'd simply leave before the trial starts. But that's just me... I think they can still fix the set fine error if an actual trial occurs with you present, but I can't say with complete certainty. Anyone...?
Off_Camber wrote:
Thanks for the input, and as i am aware in advance that one cannot refer to legal advice on a web page.
Advice on the internet is always caveat emptor, but hopefully some of the input we've given you proves useful.
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