Improperly Passing a Streetcar

I was driving along (eastbound) on the same street as the streetcar, and didn't realize it was stopping. It was in the left-lane, while I was in the right. I continued along, while it came to a stop. As I continued to pass it (instead of stopping right beside it), I see the doors open. That's when I realized I was in Toronto and should have stopped for the streetcar! (I don't drive much in Toronto... and we don't have streetcars in Mississauga.)

The streetcar driver honked to alert a cop (who was to my luck, posted on a speedtrap facing the westbound traffic). He ran over and pulled me over, giving me a ticket for improper passing.

My only argument is that I was already beside the streetcar when it had come to a stop.. so shouldn't I continue in order to get out of the way of passengers getting off the streetcar? Do I have any other arguments in my favour?

Since the officer was on the other side of the road, do you think he saw what actually happened? if not he will have to rely on the street car driver to testify for the charge to stick. Then the driver and the officer need to show up in court. You have a chance.

If you want to fight the ticket, request disclosure to see what evidence the officer has against you and see if he has any witness for the charge (is the box "witness" checked on the ticket?).

See www.ticketcombat.com for a sample of disclosure.

Next time watch for street car when you drive in toronto!

I agree I don't think the cop even saw it. He responded to the streetcar driver, who I think was having a bad day (don't blame him either!)... I hate driving in toronto.

As for the "witness" box...I didn't even notice that box until you made me look for it!... The witness box is marked 'No'.

I don't like to drive in toronto either, too many cops these days, no more comfortable and enjoyayable driving, i just have to keep my guard up constantly.

Ok so the cop did not see what happened, then he needs the TTC driver on the witness stand. Disclosure it is. Once you get disclosure you will have a clearer picture of how to proceed with the defense.

Be warned that you still have to prepare your case to the full extent, counting on either witness not showing up does not guarantee a win. Prepare for the worst. Log on Ticketcombat website to learn the defense strategy.

Thanks for the link, liveontheedge! Lots of good tips there. Esp. since this is my first court appearance (and hopefully last), I'll be sure to read it all! I'm still looking for the "Sample of Disclosure" you mentioned. And for some idea on how to request for disclosure?? I wonder if it's too late now? Less than a month until my court date...

I received this ticket on Sept 2008. I am to appear in court on July 2009. That's over 9 months. I just read about "Limitation Periods"... would that apply to me? I'm being charged for an offence against HTA 166 (1)... or is it a year limit? I guess I'm fishin' now, huh?

P.S. Thanks for your prompt responses!

Oh.. nvm... I found the "Sample of Disclosure"!!!

If it is your 1st ticket, it may not affect your insurance rate, you have the option to take the plea bargain from the prosecutor, no point, less fine.

In any case send out the request for disclosure, then you have a month to research and decide what to do at trial.

If the cop and the TTC driver show up you either take the plea bargain or delay the trial by telling the JP that you just find out about the disclosure a few weeks ago and would like an adjournment to obtain disclosure. He will grant it.

New problem!!!

I can't find my letter & stub indicating my trial date & time. I KNOW what the date & time is, because I wrote it in my calendar, but I don't have the actual letter!! Am I required to have it with me when I appear in court? I've looked EVERYWHERE for it!! I think I kept it in a "safe" place... which usually means "hard to find".

You don't need the letter. It simply states whats on your PON anyway. Well' you don't need it if you know the courtroom as well.....

I don't think you need them when you go to your trial. You can retrieve your offense number, officer's ID# from the court docket posted in front of the court room.

I do recall reading that I have to be at the OLD CITY HALL... but I don't recall which ROOM in the court!!!!

I'm screwed!!

No you're not. They'll post the names and times of the cases they're hearing (R. v. r0sst3r, for example) outside each court room. Just ask them where the provincial offences courts are located and you can find your room by looking at the dockets. Takes a little longer but it's no big deal. Eventually you'll find a docket with your name on it, just show up early.

*phew* Ok, thanks!! I'll go an hour early.

Hopefully I find the room. Are there loads of rooms on different floors, etc?

I just wanted to say what an incredible forum this is.. where people actually HELP other people.. and for nothing in return! I wish I could return the favour with advice for the readers on other threads, but my lack of experience renders me practically useless in that regard. Still, I'm a relatively new driver... so when I do have the experience, I'll be sure to share!

Thanks, again to all who have helped me so far!! I will be sure to post the outcome.

I'm just hoping the cop won't show! As he was almost convincing me to fight the ticket instead of paying it off. Cuz after he handed me the ticket and left, when I asked him how many points I'd lose, he said,

"That's 2-3 demerit points. Well you could fight it."

To which I said:

"But I always pay my ticket; I've never taken it to court".

Then he said

"Everyone makes mistakes, you don't have to get persecuted for it!"

So that's when I decided to try taking it to court. I just don't want my insurance rates to go up. (I have 2 speeding tickets already!!... each for going 15 over - no demerit points).

r0sst3r wrote:

*phew* Ok, thanks!! I'll go an hour early.

Hopefully I find the room. Are there loads of rooms on different floors, etc?

If you're there an hour early, that means you'll sit for a total of 3.....IMHO.

I just found my "Notice of Trial" ... woooHOOOO!

I know, I know, just a minor victory... but still!

As suggested by "ticketcombat.com" I submitted a "Request for Disclosure" in the mail today. I also faxed in a copy to the Prosecutor's Office.

There are only 22 days until my trial date. I hope the Judge doesn't dismiss my request due to my lateness!! Let's see what happens.....

.

I just received a letter in the mail, saying that I have to pay a $5 fee for the disclosure request. I guess this is a new rule....

Anyway, I'll resubmit my request, along with the $5 asap, and tell the judge that I have done so & am now awaiting the info.

.

They have a way of discouraging people from requesting disclosure. People don't get justice for free, it comes at a cost.

Let see, driver has to go in person to fill out the "Notice of trial", has to go in person to pick up disclosure, driver was given a court date not of his/her choice, now another $5 for disclosure (if disclosure is never sent would you get $5 back?), WTF is next?

So true! Hopefully this persistence pays off. 5 days until d-day!

Hang on. They're charging you $5??? Disclosure is free and the Crown is obligated to provide it to you, not charge you. It sounds like they are confusing your request with an FOI request. An FOI request does cost $5 which is the deposit for the initial inquiry. You pay the actual photocopying costs later.

Don't pay the $5. Use this to your advantage to get a stay. But make absolutely certain that you sent your request to the prosecutor (the Crown). If you sent it anywhere else, I can see why they would have confused the issue.

I sent it to the prosecutor's office as per the advice I got from the "ticketcombat.com" site....one copy via mail and another via fax.

Offence number begining with "4860 999 00 XXXXXXXX-00"

Old City Hall

100 Queen Street West

tel: 416-338-7245

fax: 416-338-6986

HERE'S WHAT THE LETTER READS:

*********************************

Dear xxx,

The information access request you submitted under the Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act was received by the Access and Privacy Section on June 29, 2009, and is enclosed.

Pursuant to the passage of Bill 28, Schedule K (Omnibus Bill), and effective March 1, 1996, there is a non-waivable application fee of $5.00 for each request under the Act. Processing of the request will commence upon receipt of the fee.

Please resubmit your request with a cheque or Money Order for $5.00, made payable to the TORONTO POLICE SERVICE; together with a photocopy of two pieces of valid government issued ID to :

Toronto Police Service,

Access and Privacy Section,

40 College St. 4th Floor

Toronto, ON M5G 2J3 (Tel:416.808.7850)

Please note that the following fees may apply:

Request for Personal Information

--------------------------------------

Photocopying: $0.20 per page (if over 25 pages)

Computer Programming: $15.00 per 1/4 hour if needed

Diskettes: $10.00 each

Request for General Information

-------------------------------------

Photocopying: $0.20 per page

Search time & Record Prep. $7.50 per 1/4 hour

Computer Programming: $15.00 per 1/4

Diskettes: $10.00 each

You will be given a fee estimate if anticipated fees exceed $25.00 If the estimate of fees to be paid is $100.00 or more, you may be required to pay a 50% deposit.

Yours truly,

Katie Watts

Coordinator

Access and Privacy Section

AF/Ip

Encl. Original Request

.

This is hilarious. As long as YOUR letter clearly stated:

City of Toronto Prosecutor's Office

100 Queen St. W...

You are golden. It looks like the city forwarded your request to the police officer to complete (i.e. hand over your notes, etc). The cop(s) sent it to their FOI office instead! DOH!

So ignore the Police FOI letter. It's the Crown's responsibility to provide you disclosure, not your responsibility to negotiate with their witness. Since disclosure was requested so late, you will likely get an adjournment.

If they play the game of chicken with you, look to see if either the cop or driver are there. If they aren't, they must drop the charge.

Don't accept a plea bargain when they will have to adjourn or toss the charge anyway. Whatever happens DO NOT CAVE IN. Insist that you did not receive disclosure.

Good luck and good fight!

Ok, so let me see if I got this right. Here is my action plan.

(Sorry I had to break it down like this, but I'm really nervous about this..it being my 1st time appearing in court.. so I don't want to screw up! I'll likely carry this list with me!)

1. Ask prosecutor if cop is present. If not - case dismissed.

If he is present....

2. Ask prosecutor (or judge?) for adjournment because disclosure was requested on June 15th, but was not received. If adjournment is granted, go home. If not granted....DO NOT ACCEPT PLEA BARGAIN.

3. Describe to judge about how the cop was radaring the other side of traffic, so he did not have a clear view of what was going on at this side of the streetcar. i.e. I had passed before the streetcar came to a halt & opened its doors. *hope for the best*

P.S.... what if the plea bargain they offer is that i get NO demerit points, and just have to pay the penalty? I'm ok with that, I think. It won't affect my insurance, I don't think? Although...I do have 2 prior speeding tickets for "15 over" - no demerit points.

Another question...

What if the prosecutor gives me the "disclosure evidence" when I meet him/her just before the trial? Can I still say that I need an adjournment to review the evidence just handed to me? Or will the judge say I had plenty of time to review it in the hallway while awaiting the trial?

...?

r0sst3r wrote:

Ok, so let me see if I got this right. Here is my action plan.

(Sorry I had to break it down like this, but I'm really nervous about this..it being my 1st time appearing in court.. so I don't want to screw up! I'll likely carry this list with me!)

1. Ask prosecutor if cop is present. If not - case dismissed.

If he is present....

2. Ask prosecutor (or judge?) for adjournment because disclosure was requested on June 15th, but was not received. If adjournment is granted, go home. If not granted....DO NOT ACCEPT PLEA BARGAIN.

3. Describe to judge about how the cop was radaring the other side of traffic, so he did not have a clear view of what was going on at this side of the streetcar. i.e. I had passed before the streetcar came to a halt & opened its doors. *hope for the best*

P.S.... what if the plea bargain they offer is that i get NO demerit points, and just have to pay the penalty? I'm ok with that, I think. It won't affect my insurance, I don't think? Although...I do have 2 prior speeding tickets for "15 over" - no demerit points.

If you haven't received disclosure by trial date you are guaranteed with an adjournment regardless who requesting it. So if you play tough and play your cards right it could be over that day, otherwise it would drag on.

I would just check in with the Cown but don't let him/her know what my plan would be. If h/she makes an offer to plead down, it's up to you to take it, but if you don't take it, just say you would think about it and go find a seat and watch for the cop showing up.

Don't let the Crown know that you haven't got disclosure, don't try to explain what happened between your car and the street car because h/she will start to play game with you depending on what you have told him/her and will delay the trial even cop does not show. You want to leave the door open to opt for trial if cop is not there.

If the Crown hand over the disclosure to you before trial, don't take it, tell him/her to give it to you after trial.

You only need to explain the incident with the street car to the judge if the trial takes place, but you don't want to go to trial since you have not received disclosure.

If the JP forces the trial on that day with disclosure just handed over to you, you can politely ask the JP to delay the trial for you to review the disclosure with your lawyer. If it's denied i guess you have no choice but to proceed (very unlikely)

r0sst3r wrote:

Another question...

What if the prosecutor gives me the "disclosure evidence" when I meet him/her just before the trial? Can I still say that I need an adjournment to review the evidence just handed to me? Or will the judge say I had plenty of time to review it in the hallway while awaiting the trial?

...?

Worst case, ask for an adjournment due to late disclosure. Best case, JP tosses the case....

If the judge grants me an adjournment, what is the next step I take? Do I find out my next court date immediately, or should I go to the office there and line-up to request a new date (like I did for my original Court Date)?

Just asking... in case I excitedly walk outta there without doing something I should have done.

.

P.S. Do we have to dress formally when appearing in court? i.e. no jeans/runners?

r0sst3r wrote:

If the judge grants me an adjournment, what is the next step I take? Do I find out my next court date immediately, or should I go to the office there and line-up to request a new date (like I did for my original Court Date)?

Just asking... in case I excitedly walk outta there without doing something I should have done.

.

What you do next depending on the reason for adjournment, for example to give the cop more time to send you disclosure, or to give the crown more games to play...

From what i've seen they give you the date/time and court room number right away, and people say you should dress appropriately (no jeans, nor runing shoes) but it's your choice.