Improperly Passing a Streetcar

r0sst3r
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by: r0sst3r on
Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:25 pm

Umm... with the QP stike, I wonder how delayed my experience in court is going to be... :(


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r0sst3r
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by: r0sst3r on
Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:18 am

WOW - that was quite an experience.

The cop was actually present!! So I'm glad I was advised to assume he'd be there. :)

At the desk outside the courtroom, the prosecutor asked me what I was going to do about the charge. And I said, "not guilty".. then she proceeded to ask what I would say. And I went ahead and told her I had requested disclosure but did not receive it. (I KNOW YOU GUYS HAD SAID NOT TO TALK TO THE PROSECUTOR ABOUT WHAT MY PLAN OF ACTION WAS GOING TO BE, BUT SHE ASKED ME DIRECTLY.. AND THAT'S WHAT THE OTHERS DID TOO!) When she heard I had submitted on June 15th, she said it was too late, as I need to submit 6-8 weeks in advance. To which I said I'll talk to the judge anyway. She also looked through her book and said "Sorry, but I can't give you a lesser offence as there is nothing I can do about this. It's going to be 3 demerit points." (No biggie, as I don't want to plead guilty to a lesser charge anyway!)

In court, when it was my turn, she told the judge that I requested a disclosure on June 15th. So the judge proceeded to schedule a different trial date...He also made the cop go downstairs and photocopy the evidence and hand it to me right away, as he didn't want to delay me further with red tape esp. due to the strike..... unfortunately the prosecutor checked with the cop to ensure he could make that date & time. So I'm quite sure he'll be there next time as well! I'm scheduled to appear in Nov. I now have my "evidence" just a sheet of the officer's notes about the incident. (I'll transcribe it shortly).

My question is, when you re-appear in court (after an adjournment) do you get the SAME PROSECUTOR and JUDGE? :? I really like the Judge.. he was more than fair, and very understanding. He allowed LOTS of people go without charging them. I almost wish I had just proceded with my case, but I was afraid I might conflict with the cop's evidence since I didn't have it yet.



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*** Honesty is the best policy... at least I'd like to believe so! ***


r0sst3r
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by: r0sst3r on
Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:38 am

I'm outside s/c. When I hear report of s/c horn sounding I turn to see s/c @ TTC stop doors open, stopped & grey mazda passes open doors slowly. I run across Gerrard & stop vehicle tell vehicle to go to Blackburn St.
(Also included is a little drawing of where he was standing relative to where my car was. This apprears accurate.)


From this, I guess I have 2 points to argue in my defence:
* While his evidence states that I passed the open doors, I can still argue that he admitted that he had to turn to see what was going on. Therefore the only real witness is the streetcar driver.
* He did not have a clear view of the streetcar doors when I was just beside the front doors of the streetcar, so he didn't see that they were closed as I passed.
* I'm still going to argue that I did tap my breaks when I noticed the streetcar slowing down, but as soon as I realized I would obstruct the front doors when they opened, I decided to proceed cautiously.


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*** Honesty is the best policy... at least I'd like to believe so! ***


liveontheedge
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by: liveontheedge on
Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:20 pm

r0sst3r wrote:I'm outside s/c. When I hear report of s/c horn sounding I turn to see s/c @ TTC stop doors open, stopped & grey mazda passes open doors slowly. I run across Gerrard & stop vehicle tell vehicle to go to Blackburn St.
(Also included is a little drawing of where he was standing relative to where my car was. This apprears accurate.)


From this, I guess I have 2 points to argue in my defence:
* While his evidence states that I passed the open doors, I can still argue that he admitted that he had to turn to see what was going on. Therefore the only real witness is the streetcar driver.
* He did not have a clear view of the streetcar doors when I was just beside the front doors of the streetcar, so he didn't see that they were closed as I passed.
* I'm still going to argue that I did tap my breaks when I noticed the streetcar slowing down, but as soon as I realized I would obstruct the front doors when they opened, I decided to proceed cautiously.


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Don't assume that the cop will be there next time. You still need to look for him before trial to act accordingly. (although he agreed on the trial date it does not mean he will be there for sure)

You usually don't get the same JP or the same prosecutor next time, unless it's a coincidence.

Do you think the cop can see the TTC door open or closed from where he was standing?

I wonder if it's a good idea to involve the TTC driver as a witness, the driver is definitely your hostile witness, on the other hand additional witness may create other opportunity.


r0sst3r
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by: r0sst3r on
Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:35 pm

Hmm... wait, what are you saying? That I shouldn't mention the TTC driver? It's unavoidable, as the cop mentioned the sound of the horn. However, on the ticket he issued me, it says "no witnesses". So the streetcar driver should be present. Does this mean I'd have to adjourn again? I HOPE NOT.. I'd rather end it there. It would depend on the judge I guess.
*** Honesty is the best policy... at least I'd like to believe so! ***


liveontheedge
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by: liveontheedge on
Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:06 pm

I am not saying leave out the TTC driver as a witness, i just want to weight the pro's and con's because things get more complicated when the TTC driver needs to be summoned or supeonaed.

If you can take picture or video to prove that it was impossible for the cop to see the street car door opened or closed from where he was standing and that may be enough to win without having to supeona the driver, but it's your call.

Check the following thread answered by Ticketcombat:
http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic1142.html


r0sst3r
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by: r0sst3r on
Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:15 am

WOW!! I had NO idea! Ok, I'll have to be careful what I say. THANKS!
*** Honesty is the best policy... at least I'd like to believe so! ***


euCC
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by: euCC on
Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:22 am

Hello! Could you please let us know what was the end of the story?
I am in the same situation.


pvotrainer
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by: pvotrainer on
Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:53 pm

Make sure the TTC driver is there. You can not pass open streetcar doors, any set of them. If you are near the center, you have to stop for the open front doors. You r defence may be that the doors opened while you were moving and yo were not able to stop prior to the door


euCC
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by: euCC on
Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:33 pm

I didn't pass the streetcar. I was stopped in the intersection waiting a car in front of me to do the right turn (was green light and pedestrians passing). The streetcar stopped behind me, and I proceeded in the intersection when the doors opened. The driver on the streetcar horn me (my guess is that he was under the impression that I just pass him), and after 10 - 15 seconds I noticed a police car on my back and I stopped. Probably was around, and he reacted to the horn.I am pretty sure that he didn't see anything. He stopped behind me, waited for the streetcar, talk with the driver and come to me. He asked me if I know why he stopped me and when I reply that I have no idea, he start telling me that I did something very wrong I we are lucky that nothing bad happened. I tried to explain him the situation when he said that I pass the streetcar, but with no effect. I am very sure that I did nothing wrong, but I got the ticket.
After I got the letter with Notice of Trial and the court day I went to Old City Hall in the basement (I don't remember the room, but there is the Prosecutor, somewhere in the middle) to fill up a request for disclosure. The lady at the desk stamp it, and give me a copy, saying that it will take 8 to 12 weeks and I will get it at the address I mentioned on my request. I was very curious to see what the policeman wrote as a justification for the ticket.
I got nothing until the trial date. I did my due diligence, and I called the prosecutor office a coupe of times (in the 6 to 2 weeks period before the trial) and every time I was told that I should get by mail soon, if not I should do another request, or wait and talk with Prosecutor in the trial day.
At the trial date the Prosecutor was sitting by the court door and call everyone scheduled for that afternoon by name. She called me, and first she asked me if I got the disclosure. When I answered No she told me to go inside and wait for my turn. Inside when they called my name the Prosecutor just said that: "Your Worship, Officer is not present please withdraw this case". The end of the inconvenience.


mdub
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by: mdub on
Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:00 pm

euCC wrote:I didn't pass the streetcar. I was stopped in the intersection waiting a car in front of me to do the right turn (was green light and pedestrians passing). The streetcar stopped behind me, and I proceeded in the intersection when the doors opened. The driver on the streetcar horn me (my guess is that he was under the impression that I just pass him), and after 10 - 15 seconds I noticed a police car on my back and I stopped. Probably was around, and he reacted to the horn.I am pretty sure that he didn't see anything. He stopped behind me, waited for the streetcar, talk with the driver and come to me. He asked me if I know why he stopped me and when I reply that I have no idea, he start telling me that I did something very wrong I we are lucky that nothing bad happened. I tried to explain him the situation when he said that I pass the streetcar, but with no effect. I am very sure that I did nothing wrong, but I got the ticket...
At the trial date the Prosecutor was sitting by the court door and call everyone scheduled for that afternoon by name. She called me, and first she asked me if I got the disclosure. When I answered No she told me to go inside and wait for my turn. Inside when they called my name the Prosecutor just said that: "Your Worship, Officer is not present please withdraw this case". The end of the inconvenience.
wow you got lucky! that is pretty nice. when i asked the cop if there will be any demerit points, he responded 3. To which I replied, 3? Wow. And he replied "well you could fight it, but I do have the streetcar driver as a witness".
I really don't know what to do.. I am not used to driving downtown, and when I moved to the right lane to pass the streetcar, I thought it wasn't stopping to let people out. Then midway passing it's doors opened and he honked and I got so nervous that I sped past to avoid hitting somebody. Anyways a cop that was at the light perpendicular to the lights I passed reacted to the horn and pulled me over. Should I be choosing Option 2 Plea of Guilty.. I really want the points to be gone, or else I do not think I can afford the insurance on my car.. Any advice would be helpful. I really appreciate it.


euCC
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by: euCC on
Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:46 am

You can choose the trial option, ask for disclosure, and if you get it you'll know what to do. You can plead guilty on the trial date, when you'll meet the Prosecutor, and try to get a deal.


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