New law

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casper
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New law

Unread post by casper on

Why is it that we never hear of police issuing tickets to drivers for driving with bald tires or poor brakes after all those are the things that usually cause accidents. All you hear is that speed was a factor or the word "racing" is mentioned. Why pick on seasoned car enthusiasts that enjoy cars in general. How could you crush my car just because it fits the right profile. Thats just like saying, just because you have a gun collection you will go to jail because someday you might shoot someone. I thought this was a free country, innocent till proven guilty. I guess the government will do anything to make money.


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OHTA
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Unread post by OHTA on

Well I think that accidents don't happen JUST because your tires are bald or you have bad brakes.

Speeding is the #1 cause for accidents, not only in Ontario, not only Canada wide, but ALL over NORTH AMERICA.

In my opinion the car doesn't matter, it's how you drive it!


casper
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Unread post by casper on

Yes off course its the driver but if you do not have a proper running vehicle your chances of accident are greater then when everything OK.


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Unread post by OHTA on

casper wrote:Yes off course its the driver but if you do not have a proper running vehicle your chances of accident are greater then when everything OK.
Yes, your 100% correct! The vehicles condition must be fit for the roads.


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Bookm
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Unread post by Bookm on

OHTA wrote:Speeding is the #1 cause for accidents, not only in Ontario, not only Canada wide, but ALL over NORTH AMERICA.
Woe there!! please link me to where you got this statistic. If this is just your personal opinion, please state how speed causes accidents (as apposed to following to close, careless driving, etc.).

Now if you define speed as anything over 1kph, than of course every accident has it's basis in speed, but to suggest most accidents happen due to speed alone, I have to take issue with that. Too fast for conditions is more appropriate when discussing accident statistics.

Conditions defined as:
1. the road condition (dry, wet, snowy, icy etc.)
2. the vehicle's mechanical condition (drive-train, tires, brakes, steering etc.)
3. the driver's ability (fatique, age, emotion, mind concentration, drug influence etc.)
4. the traffic condition (dense, moderate, light)
5. visibility (day, night, fog, snow storm, heavy rain etc.)

Links of interest dubunking speed limit "safety":
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/n ... c2ae606a5b
http://www.motorists.org/ma/kill.html
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa346.pdf
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/8236
http://www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana.htm


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OHTA
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Unread post by OHTA on

I'm not sure how or where your getting your facts from, but if you watch any news or listen to police briefings, they will tell you that SPEEDING is the #1 cause of accidents in Ontario.

We're not talking about small fender benders either, but major ones which cause serious injury or death. Here is some fact supported by most police departments, which is that almost ALL of the crashes that lead to death have SPEEDING involved.

It's also common sense to me, that the faster you drive, the longer it will take you to stop!
Bookm wrote: Conditions defined as:
1. the road condition (dry, wet, snowy, icy etc.)
2. the vehicle's mechanical condition (drive-train, tires, brakes, steering etc.)
3. the driver's ability (fatique, age, emotion, mind concentration, drug influence etc.)
4. the traffic condition (dense, moderate, light)
5. visibility (day, night, fog, snow storm, heavy rain etc.)
And yes, conditions do matter, that is why speed is to blame when the accidents DO happen.

You don't just get into an accident JUST because its snowy outside. I drive all the time in our harsh Canadian winter, and I don't crash for no reason. Why? Because I know that if I speed, I will likely cause my tires to slip when I try to brake.

So if I'm speeding when theres a blizzard outside, and I crash, well you cant simply blame the blizzard and the snow, now can you?

Also, there are car manufacturer statistics that show what conditions their car/automobile can withstand and properly perform in. You will see that they DO caution Speeding as they HAVE done tests, that is the car manufacturer did, and which will show that in certain conditions if you speed, your chances of crash will INCREASE!


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Bookm
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Unread post by Bookm on

OHTA wrote:I'm not sure how or where your getting your facts from, ...
I listed my sources above, LOL.

of course police statistics will claim speeding is the cause of all of this provinces safety problems. But with the millions of dollars pouring in to their coffers from speeding tickets, do you really think they'll ever accept the results of studies that conclude raising the speed limits reduces accidents? Heck no. They'd go broke.

In thirty years of driving, never have I been negatively affected by a speeder. But I've been creamed 6 TIMES by knuckleheads who just don't pay attention or look behind when reversing. Of course, no one's going to admit they were daydreaming at the wheel, so the statistics never really give a true image of what the real problems are.

I will always be suspicious of police statistics because of the way they are compiled.


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Unread post by OHTA on

How? Police statistics are based on how many they recorded per year!!

So its not like they sat around drinking coffee and decided to just make up stats lol!

And sorry, I didn't see your links. But most of them are for American highways, which is interesting seeing we are in Ontario, Canada.

That is because if you read statistics for places like Germany, they don't blame Speeding for their accidents. But why? Its actually because every country has their own specified road conditions, and road safety laws.

So how is it, and why does the Ontario Police and the Ontario Government keep nagging us about speeding? It's because of the STATISTICS they collected for Ontario, which shows speeding to be an increasing factor for the majority of the auto/car accidents..

I can't speak for the American stats and any other countries stats, but I can speak for Canada's, as I know Canada's stats are fair and 100% accurate.


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Unread post by racer on

casper wrote:Why is it that we never hear of police issuing tickets to drivers for driving with bald tires or poor brakes after all those are the things that usually cause accidents. All you hear is that speed was a factor or the word "racing" is mentioned.
The truth is, that speed of a moving vehicle is readily measured by a laser. Neither the boldness of the tires nor the condition of the brakes can be measured with such ease. Also, they do not cause accidents. They contribute to the cause of accidents.
casper wrote: How could you crush my car just because it fits the right profile. Thats just like saying, just because you have a gun collection you will go to jail because someday you might shoot someone.
If someone is driving a 100+ K car, chances are that that "poor" soul will be able to pay whatever the charge. A student driving a rusty 1991 Cavalier won't be able to. I have many times heard the argument "Why are the cars being made that can go 400 km/h, when the speed limit is 100 km/h?" These cars are to be driven on the racetrack at these speeds, not on our roads (even though I am sure someone with minimal training can do 200 km/h on our highways), where some people are afraid of doing 80 on perfectly straight and dry road for some reason. If you think you are the only one being pulled over for having a flashy car, try Senators' goalie Ray Emery's luck
casper wrote:I guess the government will do anything to make money.
Why does the government crush down so hard on money launderers and thieves? - Noone likes the competition. (Old joke I heard)

I have to disagree with some of you on some points. We've had some really bad weather these past 2 weeks, and there are all sorts of accidents. What do I see - some people doing 60 in a 60, while everyone else is, due to the poor road condition, is driving at 30. The guy at 60 is not speeding, but he is going WAY TOO FAST. Dry road, he can do 90 there for all I care, but on the road covered with 15 cm of packed snow? And the next day I hear about 4 accidents in my town of 120 000 in one night. The weather conditions ARE NOT to blame. The speeding is not to blame. The tire conditions are not to blame. The brakes condition is not to blame. It is the combination of all those things, at 20%, mixed with 80% of driver's fault that is to blame. When you know that your brakes are not very good, you can drive accordingly. When your tires' threads are not good, you can drive accordingly. When the weather is not good, you can drive accordingly. Why some people do not adjust their driving to conditions of any of those things is beyond me. Stay safe out there!


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Unread post by dntmstr on

Speeding is NOT the issue; even tho police would like everyone to think it is; that way when you see a speed trap, or get a ticket for speeding-"oh well, I/they must deserve it, speeding is bad". BS! Speeding does not cause crashes, if it did I guess all car races would be full of terrible crashes. But I agree that driving too fast for conditions does cause harm and crashes; that could be driving undr the limit in inclement weather, or above the limit in dry conditions but too much traffic.


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Unread post by OHTA on

Yes, obviously speeding alone is not a reason for accidents, but it is one of the MAIN contribution to accidents.

Some people speed all the time...

How does this affect the road?

You simply are not going the same speed as other cars, because they are following the speed limit, and by you speeding, you are actually creating more problems with your excessive maneuvering.

However, I do believe increasing the speed limit on highways is a good idea for some highways, as it could decrease the accident percentages.

But, there would also need to be a change in the infrastructure so that it is able to handle the new speed limit.


casper
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Unread post by casper on

""Why are the cars being made that can go 400 km/h, when the speed limit is 100 km/h?" These cars are to be driven on the racetrack at these speeds"
Yes, and we all know that all the Benz/Audi/BMW Wagons and SUVs that can easily travell at 250+ will be driven on a race track. Plus I know there are race tracks on every corner in Ontario. Why not offer the 407 as new no speed limit highway. It would be perfect for that. I bet that people from far far away would go there to see how fast the cars are and not worry about police and at the same time generate more revenue.


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Unread post by Bookm on

I recently had a conversation with a German citizen working here for his apprenticeship. He stated that the Autobahn has become a tourist destination and he doubts the government will ever create speed limits on it. The accident rate decreased AND it just brings in too much tourist dollars. People love the freedom of choosing their own speed limit so much so that they will plan their holidays around it. They run down to the local rental place, pull out in a nice new Mercedes, and promptly hit 220kph. Who needs Canada's Wonderland! LOL

I whole-heartedly agree that the 407 would make a fantastic "testing ground" for a no-speed-limit highway in Canada. The first time I used it, I assumed there was no law enforcement on it, LOL (since it is privately owned) and was quite comfortable at 160kph. I was even passed a couple times at that speed! I still felt much safer than the chaotic 401. Well worth the $12. I'm just not sure the Ontario government wants to consider the potential results. Can you imagine the can of worms it would create if it should show a decrease in accidents/deaths? And how could Fantino afford maintenance and fuel for his plane if he lost all that ticket money? Too risky. Better to keep the revenue flowing as-is.


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Unread post by OHTA on

That is a misconception as the Autobahn does indeed have speed limits.

The speed limits are per lane. Every lane has its own designated minimum speed limit and max speed limit.

If you want to go 220 km/h then you must stick to the one designated lane. It doesn't mean you can criss cross throughout the lanes.

Also, the Autobahn is mostly a straight highway.

So lets not confuse ourselves and think its a free for all highway, because they also have their own highway speed laws.


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Unread post by Bookm on

Approximately 25% of the German Autobahn have speed limits (some as high as 130kph). 75% has no speed limit for specified vehicles (excludes trailers, transport trucks, etc.). Each lane does not have it's own speed limit, though slower traffic must keep to the right lanes. Here is some pertinent info about the Autobahn, all of which could be implemented here. But for some reason, our government and police forces don't agree with the German model, regardless of how intelligent it is.

The average speed traveled on the autobahn in unregulated areas by automobiles not regulated by other laws is about 150 km/h.

Autobahn Traffic laws and enforcement

The German autobahn network is patrolled by unmarked police cars and motorcycles equipped with video cameras. This practice allows the enforcement of laws (tailgating, for example) which are often viewed in other countries as difficult to prove in court.
("I suggested this method of traffic law enforcement to Cam Woolly himself (more video cameras / less radar guns). I got no positive reaction")

* Autobahns in Austria and Germany may only be used by powered vehicles that are designed to achieve a maximum speed exceeding 60 km/h (Switzerland: 80 km/h).
* The right lane must be used when it is free, and the left lane is generally intended for passing maneuvers only. Drivers using the left lane when the other lanes are free may be fined by autobahn police.

(this is also an HTA regulation but it is clear to anyone driving on the 401 that it is not understood or enforced here)
* Overtaking on the right (Undertaking) is forbidden, except in traffic jams where it may be practiced with caution. The fact that the car overtaken is illegally occupying the left-hand lane is not an acceptable excuse. In these cases the police will routinely stop and fine both drivers.
* Not allowing faster cars to overtake one's own car if the traffic situation allows it (eg. by occupying the left-hand lane for a longer period of time) may be considered coercion[6].

(absolutely the most basic safety related issue, again, not practiced effectively by Ontarians)
* In case of a traffic accident, the drivers must form an emergency lane to guarantee that emergency services can reach the scene of the accident. This lane must be formed between the left lane and the lane next to the left lane (i.e. between the two leftmost lanes).
(Very clever. Never thought of that before)
* It is unlawful for a driver to stop their vehicle on the road for any reason except in an emergency or situations where stopping is unavoidable, such as being involved in a collision. This includes stopping on emergency lanes. Running out of fuel is considered preventable and is consequently fined.
* It is also unlawful to turn around or back up on the Autobahn under any circumstances. Doing so is punishable under criminal law.
* The distance between vehicles (in metres) should be at least half the speed (in km/h) at all times (e.g. at least 60 meters at 120 km/h). This corresponds to a "lead time" of just under 2 seconds. Again, the fact that the car in front is illegally occupying the left-hand lane when the right-hand lane is free does not excuse following too closely.

Fines for tailgating were increased in May 2006. At speeds of over 100 km/h, keeping less than 30 percent of the recommended distance now results in a suspension of one's driver's license for one to three months.

(Tailgaiting is taken very seriously on the Autobahn. More so than speed. They are very smart!)

* The legal regulations explicitly allow drivers to honk or flash headlights shortly in order to indicate intention of overtaking.[7] Obtrusive behavior of the potentially overtaking car, such as constantly flashing headlights or driving at insufficient distances for a longer period of time is illegal and may be prosecuted as coercion. This may also apply to drivers not allowing faster cars to overtake their car if the traffic situation allows it (eg. by occupying the left-hand lane for a longer period of time)[8].
(In Ontario, it is widely considered rude to flash your high-beams. It often leads to road rage. We need to be educated that it is just a useful signal of intention to pass and it should not be regarded as an insult)
* The tires must be approved for the vehicle's top speed. Tires for lower speeds (i.e. cheaper than high-speed tires) are only allowed if they are marked as Winter tires (M+S or M/S). In this case the driver must have a sticker in the cockpit reminding of the maximum speed.

All data derived from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

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