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Law on Speeding and Radar Textbook
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:38 pm 
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Does anyone in the Toronto area have the following book(s):

1. The Law on Speeding and Radar
by A. Shakoor Manraj & Paul D. Haines

2. The law on speeding and speed detection devices, 3rd edition
by A. Shakoor Manraj & Paul D. Haines

If possible, I'd like to borrow the book(s).

The first book was cited in my radar manual obtained through disclosure. In the back, the manual summarizes some case law.

One of the case summaries (R vs. Joudrey 1992 Nova Scotia Provincial Court) looks interesting. Here is a direct quote: "the defense lawyer cross-examined the police officer and referred to a textbook "The law on speeding and radar" and specifically to passages stating that certain atmospheric or environmental conditions could give spurious readings. The court did take judicial notice of the passages in the textbook and the accused was acquited."

If it helped that guy get acquitted, I'd like to know what is in that book!

Also, does anyone have access to that decision (R vs. Joudrey 1992 Nova Scotia Provincial Court). It too would be helpful in preparing a defence.

Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:21 pm 
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I think both the Toronto Public Library and the U of T library (also referred to as "Fort Book") have what you're looking for. If not... I'd be willing to bet that the libraries and a few bookstores in Brampton would have it, along with lots of other books on speeding. :shock:

EDIT: I recall seeing one of them at the Eglinton branch of the Toronto Public Library, specifically the one that's just east of the Oriole Parkway.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:17 pm 
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RI, thanks for the reply. I already contact the toronto public library. They have a copy for reference only (i.e. i cant sign it out).

If I'm going to refer to it in court, won't i physically need the book with me?

I'll look around in the bookstores. Chapters and Amazon do not have it.

Didn't think of the UofT library. CAn a non student sign out books?


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:07 pm 
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Hmm... thought Toronto had it for sign out. Guess I was wrong.

Anyway, the main things you want from the book are things like the case law and procedural notes. I don't see why a photocopy of the critical parts of the book, with their pages and the bibliography of it, wouldn't suffice. If it was really necessary... you could get a Commissioner of Oaths to stamp the photocopy with your statement that it is a true copy. :shock: Some of my fellow members here might have more information on the admissibility of it. Heck, they allow copies of radar and lidar manuals in as evidence, so why not a copy of that?

I know some University libraries will let non-students sign out books for an additional fee; for example, Carleton did when I was there several years ago. Not sure about U of T, but check with them and see what they say. (I was thinking more along the lines of access to it to photocopy.) If not... maybe York or Ryerson would have it and allow you to sign it out.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:50 pm 
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Radar Identified wrote:
Anyway, the main things you want from the book are things like the case law and procedural notes. I don't see why a photocopy of the critical parts of the book, with their pages and the bibliography of it, wouldn't suffice. If it was really necessary... you could get a Commissioner of Oaths to stamp the photocopy with your statement that it is a true copy. :shock: Some of my fellow members here might have more information on the admissibility of it. Heck, they allow copies of radar and lidar manuals in as evidence, so why not a copy of that?


Most books have some sort of warning on the cover/1st page saying that any reproduction, mechanical, photographic, or electronic, in part or in full, is a breach of a dozen copyright laws and punishable by death or similar penalties. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:54 pm 
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No i heard Julian Fantino banned these books in Ontario a while back.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:06 am 
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"The Law of Traffic Offences Ontario" by S.C. Hutchison is a great book with lots of case law on every page. There IS a section on Speeding, though not particularly detailed. I had no problem getting a copy locally by ordering it at a book store.

I always intend to get the "Speeding..." book too, but never got around to it. I could use a copy right 'bout now though ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:32 pm 
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Enforcement action (namely a lawsuit) on a copyright would really only be taken if a person photocopied it and then sold it, distributed it to others, or passed it off as his own. Otherwise libraries wouldn't dare have any photocopy machines - which, of course, they have in abundance. Newspapers have similar copyright protection. :shock: I have a couple of things copyrighted and I was told that someone photocopying some of the work for their own reference was perfectly okay.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Bookm wrote:
"The Law of Traffic Offences Ontario" by S.C. Hutchison is a great book with lots of case law on every page. There IS a section on Speeding, though not particularly detailed. I had no problem getting a copy locally by ordering it at a book store.

I always intend to get the "Speeding..." book too, but never got around to it. I could use a copy right 'bout now though ;)


Don't tell Cam Wooley.

I still remember that episode of Canada's worst driver where you went through the solom and he told you off saying you were a bad driver even at slow speeds!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:44 pm 
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One of the things that stuck in my mind was when Andrew was chewing out Bookm on CWD. Bookm says he has never been in an at-fault crash, so I still remember this one quote:

"If I were you, I'd be wondering how many accidents I left in my wake."
Or something like that. Translation: "I don't have any hard evidence that you have driven beyond your capabilities on a public road, so I'll just use some vague theory that can't be disproven to guilt-trip you and make you look bad." :roll:

Cam wasn't so bad, I thought.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:50 pm 
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I think I was giving them a difficult time trying to find a way to graduate me. I felt they wanted really bad drivers in the final 3, so when I recognized the "intervention" angle they were working, I went along with it. I wasn't there to make a mockery of their show. I told them from day one, if you think it'll improve viewers driving habits (especially young drivers) I'll gladly sacrifice myself for the cause :)

It's not in my nature to be rude or hostile ('cept on forums, LOL) so you never saw me lash out at anyone. Cam and I actually had a rather pleasant discussion during one the judgments in which he stated there are studies being conducted currently to see if an "adjustable" or "seasonal" speed limit might be feasible. It's a shame none of this made it past editing. It might have been good for folks to see that grown men on completely opposite ends of the HTA spectrum can sit down and have a constructive discussion about traffic issues.

I REALLY wish they could have included the segment when the hottie racer-judge agreed, "with some of what he's saying" about why speedIN is safER!

I asked my wife for a birthday present shirt that said that. Instead I got, "Slower is Safer". Doh!!

Anyway, the GoKart was more fun than anything I've ever done. Stupid-fast it was. I did 100mph in about 8 sec.'s. Again, not much of that ended up on air :( And the 6-speed shifter worked opposite to my sim-racing setup, so I kept shifting down instead of up. I want a RE-MATCH!! LOL


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:22 pm 
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Ill add to that Bookm, i have talked to a few HSD officer's when they were on break. Most were decent, nice, open minded, and saw things from both ways.

As far as speed limits i like to see what they think. Ill say this though on average alot of them think we could use a higher limit then 100.

Two of them basically told me the same thing.

They think the most dangerous thing is not the speed itself, its the big difference in speeds they see that worries them, along with aggressive driving.

They told me it isn't 120 that is the problem, its that weaving all over the road that is quite dangerous, and a lack of care for lane discipline.

Of course another couple said they think any more speed would cause more accidents.

But yes a few of them basically thought if we had a limit a bit higher maybee 110-120, they think it would speed up some of the slower ones and maybee some of the faster ones would also follow the limit more and you would see less difference in the speeds.

I have never gotten a chance to ask an officer what they think of the truck speed limiters.

I have talked to some truckers. They said out of town they don't care, but most say the same thing. Its making it worse. He says what happens is you get convoys of trucks trying to pass but since they are limited it takes forever and they plug the 2 right lanes and it backs up traffic and pisses people off. And they do lose big time in the states. They also said sometimes for example they can no longer speed up to let people in the right lane or speed up to avoid "problems."

As far as the limit,ill agree with you bookm.

I am not saying raise it everywhere. But there are many places in which road design can handle higher limits, and there is not to much volume or alot of the risks you get in urban settings like Toronto. A higher limit would help to reduce the speed's of drivers.

It may help lane discipline to. Often there is this problem of oh well i am already 15 or 20 over so ill just sit in the left lane, this tends to cause problems to and really angers some drivers leading to more aggressive driving and passing on the right.

I think higher limits in areas with less volume, good road design and better lane discipline would do just fine.

Other countries drive faster as well and they get on just fine. The german's are a perfect example of that slow speed limits don't always = more safety.

Mind you alot of european's have limits of 110-130 as it is, and often they exceed those. I dont find this much different then our highways. Although the word is they drive alot more polite, and tend to follow basic rules such as passing on the left, and letting others pass.

And one officer agreed with me about the speed limits and 172, he doesn't like the road side trial, although he did say it has slown people down.

But we have to remember all of the above has nothing to do with the OPP. They are just there to enforce the limit that the MTO sets, and given Jim Bradley's attitude that will never happen.

If there is one thing we know about Jim Bradley it's that he always seems to believe the way to better roads is more rules, more regulation, more laws, less speed.

Last month i was on Guelph line.

I noticed a big sign hat said the following

"MOVE RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS."

I never see these signs on a 400 series highway and i dont know why. Another problem i think is when to many people break the law, they just stop caring in general, if to many people feel we have silly, or overly cautious laws, that are old and don't make sense they just won't follow them.

Sure in lot's of other countries drivers go fast. In england in rural freeways i believe limits are 80 mph, i asked a few people that used to live there and apparently many drive alot faster then that, In Greece i think the limit is 120 on the highway? But alot will go 150.

The big difference, especially in a place like Germany is people tend to be less rude.

I mean when i see someone who wants to pass i always try to move out of there way. If there is one thing when i drive on a highway its that i do not want to anger or inconvenience other drivers or lead to road rage. I don't know why so many people now have the exact opposite attitude, some of these people to very dangerous things, especially brake checking, they slam on their brakes that could easily cause a multi vehicle collision just because they wont move over. I see this as a bigger problem then driving to fast.

By the way what is the fine now for brake checking, if you called *OPP for that would they even take it seriously?

Anyways one time i was in a truck stop and i guess he ran out of gas or something so he was filling up and getting a cofee, and he showed me some of the gadgets on the inside of the car, i thought it was pretty cool and nice of him.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:54 pm 
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The North American philosophy on driving is that, despite having wide open spaces and, in most cases, lower population density in major cities, we need to slow things down and make people stop as often as possible. Europe, out of necessity, tries to develop roads and systems that keeps traffic moving as much as possible. Not that all of their ideas are better than ours, but Jim Bradley and the rest of the Liberal gang very much follow the NA philosophy.

"How foolish are we in always telling people how to behave. When you treat people like idiots, they'll behave like that." -- Famous Dutch traffic engineer Hans Monderman

Many road signs are unnecessary. You know those advisory speed signs that warn you of the maximum speed going around a curve? Studies have shown that people drive faster with the signs there as opposed to not having the signs there. In parts of England, they improved traffic safety by removing a bunch of speed limit and road signs, and, on a narrow two-lane road, actually removed the painted centreline. What happened? People slowed down, especially when approaching oncoming traffic, and collisions dropped at intersections. They were watching the road rather than the signs and the lines - what a concept. Do we really need signs that say "slippery when wet" or "Bridge ahead?" I mean, come on. What purpose does it really serve? You think I'll see a bridge and not know that it's there?

But it's too bad that CWD wouldn't include what Cam said about seasonal speed limit adjustments and so on, as well as Juliana's remarks somewhat agreeing with Bookm. Andrew Younghusband in an interview stated that he is vehemently anti-speed, and I think the show trying to present a "balanced" perspective on Bookm's driving would've been cognitive dissonance. They had an agenda to paint him as a speed freak. "Don't speed past pictures of children where it says 40." I looked at that and said: "Yeah but did he speed past REAL children? NO!" :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:44 am 
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Radar Identified wrote:
Do we really need signs that say "slippery when wet" or "Bridge ahead?" I mean, come on.


I would tend to think that the "sign for everything" mentality comes from the good ol' USA. Where you can be sued just cuz. My last trip down there every bridge had a "bridge freezes before road" sign. Of course, in the same area they had 2 inches of snow and everything stopped for 2 and a half days...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Over here we have a "Sidewalk Ends" sign where the paved sidewalk turns into a dirt shoulder. That big yellow sidewalk sign just happens to completely block a "right lane ends" sign installed two metres behind it.

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