Incorrect Set Fine Payable - Force Fatal Error

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jsherk
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by: jsherk on
Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:12 pm

To force a fatal error for an incorrect set fine, you simply should NOT respond to the ticket at all. It will then go before a JP in a few weeks and they should quash it.

Can you give details of the ticket (charge and section number and set fine and total payable)?
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


stickz
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by: stickz on
Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:55 pm

The charge was speeding 111 in an 80 zone section 128. The set fine is $186 and total payable $226.

Code: Select all

is 30 kilometres per hour or more but less than 50 kilometres per hour over the speed limit, to a fine of $7 for each kilometre per hour that the motor vehicle was driven over the speed limit
Therefore, the set fine should be 31 * 7 which is $217. (assuming i'm correct)

Edit: The officer made a mistake of doing 31 * 6 instead of 31 * 7.


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Decatur
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by: Decatur on
Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:32 pm

31 over, the corrrect fine for an offence notice is $186.00 plus $35.00 for victim surcharge and $5.00 for court costs. Total of $226.00 This fine is for out of court payment.

The fines you quoted are the court fines I believe that can be used by the JP if convicted in court.


stickz
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by: stickz on
Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:55 am

Damn. Well at-least I have other things to go on.

The officer's radar clearly wasn't tested properly, because I was not travelling at 111km/h. I had cruise control on locked in - on a speed lower than this, knowing I wanted to stay bellow the kms around 110. My car has decently small tires, which would likely cause the speed on my speedometer to be overestimated. And my speed goes down by one kilometer after resuming cruise control.

If the reading was took while I was passing someone, the officer was more than 5 kilometers away and behind a four way stop. He clearly did not have even the slightest amount of visibility that far down the road, given the weak snow drifts, that were fogging extended range. Also, two other vehicles were in close proximity. It could have very easily been one of the other vehicles, travelling at the rate of speed he claims. I wasn't alone until I got past the four way stop and drove by the officer, who was heading in the opposite direction.

The officer spun around into my lane and immediately turned the lights on. I was a bit surprised because this was the speed I've been using for about four months on this road, while driving by countless other police officers who were toned out. There was no time to pace me because everything happened so fast. When I asked to see the radar, he showed how it was locked into 111km/h. There appeared to be three sections for numbers, with only the middle one lit up. He also hinted the speed was clocked before I saw the cruiser.

He got very agitated when I told him about cruise control and that I would never set a cruise point that high. After I had mentioned "the last time I looked down at the speedometer, it read 99", before a ticket was written with no reduction. He then said "If you send this to court, I will be there."


lolwut
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by: lolwut on
Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:01 pm

Based on what you've written, I gather you haven't received disclosure yet.

Get that and review it before you make assumptions like the one's you've made. I suspect, although I've been wrong before, that once you receive disclosure most of your "concerns" will not be as helpful to you as you think.


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by: OTD Legal on
Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm

Speeding is an absolute liability offence and it appears that by your own admission you were over the posted speed limit, albeit that you dispute the exact quantum of speed. Officers will generally write the peak speed that your vehicle was measured travelling regardless of whether or not you were at a lower cruise control speed before or after. It sounds as though your speedometer is not accurate which does not help in backing up your observations of your rate of speed, nor would that be a defence at trial. Disclosure will be telling factor in what defences could be argued at trial, or if trial is the preferable way to go.
The content of this post is not legal advice. Legal advice can only be provided after a licenced paralegal has been retained, spoken with you directly, and reviewed the documents related to your case.


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bobajob
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by: bobajob on
Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:56 am

it is very rare if not impossible for a car speedo to be out, ONLY if non standard wheel/tire's have been fitted.

All car speedo's are now digital (even if you have a needle), yes there is a tolerance, but that would only effect .5% of speedo's

If your needle is smack bang on the 100 you can bet your cotton socks your doing 100

GPS (from your tom tom) MAY show you driving at a different, speed, that is because there will be a very slight difference, and as compared to the wheels actually turning on the road surface
which is how your speedo calculates your speed, as opposed to a satellite where it is calculating your position.

either way, your speedo is NOT going to be out, unless you have blinged out rims :)
OTD Legal wrote:Speeding is an absolute liability offence and it appears that by your own admission you were over the posted speed limit, albeit that you dispute the exact quantum of speed. Officers will generally write the peak speed that your vehicle was measured travelling regardless of whether or not you were at a lower cruise control speed before or after. It sounds as though your speedometer is not accurate which does not help in backing up your observations of your rate of speed, nor would that be a defence at trial. Disclosure will be telling factor in what defences could be argued at trial, or if trial is the preferable way to go.
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* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail


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bobajob
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by: bobajob on
Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:02 pm

sticks one other point

cruise control can be in accurate,
my BMW is pure digital, that is I set it, my digitial speed pops up and it's locked on, it wont vary, even on a hill, gas pedal doesnt move,
it's all done on the OBD, direct to the engine mangement

now my caravan is mechanical, when the car speeds up the gas pedal goes down, and when I go down hill the car DOES speed up.
when I go up a hill, the engine revs up and so does speed (albeit slightly) then the speed stabilizes

my BMW's speed stays 100% constant regardless of gradient

NOT knowing your car it is possible for you to have set your cruise to say 110 and it could have crept up

either way on a hiway, 110 is still speeding
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail


jsherk
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by: jsherk on
Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:28 pm

Speedometers are no longer mechanical devices, and are completely electronic nowadays, even if the needle itself is still a physical needle as opposed to a digital readout.

They use a sensor either on the transmission or a wheel.

As with all electronic devices, the speedometer is not guaranteed to be accurate UNLESS you have properly calibrated it against a known standard.

I can not find any requirement in Canadian car manufacturing standards that ever require them to calibrate their speedometers before they sell them to you.

Speedometers are definitely NOT accurate at all.
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


stickz
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by: stickz on
Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:31 pm

The odometer on my car is saying the speedometer is overshot by three kilometers. I'll verify this with a GPS, but it proves a point to myself. Cruise control held the speed well bellow the four dermit point threshold because I know about this and set it this way intentionally.

I can get a statement he'll allege I said about cruise control inadmissible by voir dire because there was a stop sign two kilometers behind myself, I came to a complete stop on. When you press the break, the cruise control automatically deactivates.

The 111km/h reading was most likely taken about five kilometers away, when two other vehicles were in close proximity. There was acceleration due to a passing that happened in the area. The officer will have a very difficult time proving which car performed that the pass, unless there was a witness to the incident. Snow drifts on the road slightly reduced visibility and you still can't see that far to start with. Even IF he was close enough to pick out the colour of the two closest cars (which he wasn't), mine and anther were a shade of black, the other guy turned down a side street.

The confusion on his part is explained by the mumble jumble I told him at the stop. And myself being a lone wolf the entire time I was visible. It was likely a good thing for myself, that he didn't reduce it to the speed that could be easily proven.


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bobajob
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by: bobajob on
Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:36 pm

I used to work in the industry, .

Older speedo's I totally agree with you can be out, hence why UK law generally gave you 10% +/- 3mph.
Modern car's that is simply not the case and is really a Hail Mary defense. 99% of the speedos are balls on accurate.

The ONLY time they are out is IF you decide to change the rims and wheel size, that is the only time.
YES I will concede that there is a "chance" your speedo will be out, but in reality no.

The speedo gets it's reading from a Wheel Speed Sensor (initially) this along with other sensors feeds into the OBD, it's all digital.
The speedo itself has solid state electronics and a self test device, when its tested in factory, it is confirmed by computer by feeding a signal into
it is pure maths, a signal of a certain frequency deflects the needle a certain degree, there is no calibration, it either is or isnt.

The speedo itself and the needle reads off the speed, the needle is also set to zero and max, now during testing if it fails any test, the speedo is NOT repaired
it's not calibrated, it's sent back. The speedo is also tested after installation into the car again by computer, which can detect issues.

Older speedo needles had a spring, which is where you could get your inaccuracies

As I said of course they still can go faulty, but it is MORE common for a speedo to stop working through a faulty sensor or instrument itself rather than go "out" of
calibration.

Not saying you can't use it as a defense, it's just highly implausible that the speedo is out of wack, it just doesn't happen.

With all due respect ;)
jsherk wrote:Speedometers are no longer mechanical devices, and are completely electronic nowadays, even if the needle itself is still a physical needle as opposed to a digital readout.

They use a sensor either on the transmission or a wheel.

As with all electronic devices, the speedometer is not guaranteed to be accurate UNLESS you have properly calibrated it against a known standard.

I can not find any requirement in Canadian car manufacturing standards that ever require them to calibrate their speedometers before they sell them to you.

Speedometers are definitely NOT accurate at all.
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail


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bobajob
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by: bobajob on
Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:49 pm

Sorry the odo is saying your speedo is overshot by 3 kms? (doesnt make sense)
What are you trying to verify with your GPS ?

You already said above you set your cruise to 110, so you where speeding ? nes pas?
As I said I don't know what car you have,but it IS possible for the speed to have crept up.
Is your defense is going to be my cruise was set at 110 ? (guilty)
OR your defense is your cruise was set to 100 ?

stickz wrote:The odometer on my car is saying the speedometer is overshot by three kilometers. I'll verify this with a GPS, but it proves a point to myself. Cruise control held the speed well bellow the four dermit point threshold because I know about this and set it this way intentionally.

I can get a statement he'll allege I said about cruise control inadmissible by voir dire because there was a stop sign two kilometers behind myself, I came to a complete stop on. When you press the break, the cruise control automatically deactivates.

The 111km/h reading was most likely taken about five kilometers away, when two other vehicles were in close proximity. There was acceleration due to a passing that happened in the area. The officer will have a very difficult time proving which car performed that the pass, unless there was a witness to the incident. Snow drifts on the road slightly reduced visibility and you still can't see that far to start with. Even IF he was close enough to pick out the colour of the two closest cars (which he wasn't), mine and anther were a shade of black, the other guy turned down a side street.

The confusion on his part is explained by the mumble jumble I told him at the stop. And myself being a lone wolf the entire time I was visible. It was likely a good thing for myself, that he didn't reduce it to the speed that could be easily proven.
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail


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bobajob
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by: bobajob on
Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:53 pm

The other thing I've read on here is the TC's are trained to estimate drivers speed by observation, they have a deviance of 5kmphs apparently, I think also a cop can site you for speeding by observing your rate of speed, pacing and of course radar, I believe he can say he observed you doing approx 110 and the crown would take his word over yours.

Again just going on some of the threads I have seen here.
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail


jsherk
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by: jsherk on
Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:56 pm

bobajob wrote:it's just highly implausible that the speedo is out of wack, it just doesn't happen.
Then you could make that same argument for radar and lidar and gas pumps. Oh wait, they calibrate gas pumps? Maybe gas pumps are accurate 99% of the time, but they need to be properly calibrated every so often to make sure. This should apply to radar/lidar/speedometers as well because police in Ontario are writing over 500,000 speeding tickets a year and collecting tens of millions of dollars based on uncalibrated devices.
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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