Incorrect Set Fine Payable - Force Fatal Error

I have an incorrect set fine payable, on a speeding ticket. Can I force a fatal error with this? If so, how do I do it?

And in the event the officer *might* know about it, could this cause any complications?

To force a fatal error for an incorrect set fine, you simply should NOT respond to the ticket at all. It will then go before a JP in a few weeks and they should quash it.

Can you give details of the ticket (charge and section number and set fine and total payable)?

The charge was speeding 111 in an 80 zone section 128. The set fine is $186 and total payable $226.

is 30 kilometres per hour or more but less than 50 kilometres per hour over the speed limit, to a fine of $7 for each kilometre per hour that the motor vehicle was driven over the speed limit

Therefore, the set fine should be 31 * 7 which is $217. (assuming i'm correct)

Edit: The officer made a mistake of doing 31 * 6 instead of 31 * 7.

31 over, the corrrect fine for an offence notice is $186.00 plus $35.00 for victim surcharge and $5.00 for court costs. Total of $226.00 This fine is for out of court payment.

The fines you quoted are the court fines I believe that can be used by the JP if convicted in court.

Damn. Well at-least I have other things to go on.

The officer's radar clearly wasn't tested properly, because I was not travelling at 111km/h. I had cruise control on locked in - on a speed lower than this, knowing I wanted to stay bellow the kms around 110. My car has decently small tires, which would likely cause the speed on my speedometer to be overestimated. And my speed goes down by one kilometer after resuming cruise control.

If the reading was took while I was passing someone, the officer was more than 5 kilometers away and behind a four way stop. He clearly did not have even the slightest amount of visibility that far down the road, given the weak snow drifts, that were fogging extended range. Also, two other vehicles were in close proximity. It could have very easily been one of the other vehicles, travelling at the rate of speed he claims. I wasn't alone until I got past the four way stop and drove by the officer, who was heading in the opposite direction.

The officer spun around into my lane and immediately turned the lights on. I was a bit surprised because this was the speed I've been using for about four months on this road, while driving by countless other police officers who were toned out. There was no time to pace me because everything happened so fast. When I asked to see the radar, he showed how it was locked into 111km/h. There appeared to be three sections for numbers, with only the middle one lit up. He also hinted the speed was clocked before I saw the cruiser.

He got very agitated when I told him about cruise control and that I would never set a cruise point that high. After I had mentioned "the last time I looked down at the speedometer, it read 99", before a ticket was written with no reduction. He then said "If you send this to court, I will be there."

Based on what you've written, I gather you haven't received disclosure yet.

Get that and review it before you make assumptions like the one's you've made. I suspect, although I've been wrong before, that once you receive disclosure most of your "concerns" will not be as helpful to you as you think.

Speeding is an absolute liability offence and it appears that by your own admission you were over the posted speed limit, albeit that you dispute the exact quantum of speed. Officers will generally write the peak speed that your vehicle was measured travelling regardless of whether or not you were at a lower cruise control speed before or after. It sounds as though your speedometer is not accurate which does not help in backing up your observations of your rate of speed, nor would that be a defence at trial. Disclosure will be telling factor in what defences could be argued at trial, or if trial is the preferable way to go.

it is very rare if not impossible for a car speedo to be out, ONLY if non standard wheel/tire's have been fitted.

All car speedo's are now digital (even if you have a needle), yes there is a tolerance, but that would only effect .5% of speedo's

If your needle is smack bang on the 100 you can bet your cotton socks your doing 100

GPS (from your tom tom) MAY show you driving at a different, speed, that is because there will be a very slight difference, and as compared to the wheels actually turning on the road surface

which is how your speedo calculates your speed, as opposed to a satellite where it is calculating your position.

either way, your speedo is NOT going to be out, unless you have blinged out rims

OTD Legal wrote:

Speeding is an absolute liability offence and it appears that by your own admission you were over the posted speed limit, albeit that you dispute the exact quantum of speed. Officers will generally write the peak speed that your vehicle was measured travelling regardless of whether or not you were at a lower cruise control speed before or after. It sounds as though your speedometer is not accurate which does not help in backing up your observations of your rate of speed, nor would that be a defence at trial. Disclosure will be telling factor in what defences could be argued at trial, or if trial is the preferable way to go.

sticks one other point

cruise control can be in accurate,

my BMW is pure digital, that is I set it, my digitial speed pops up and it's locked on, it wont vary, even on a hill, gas pedal doesnt move,

it's all done on the OBD, direct to the engine mangement

now my caravan is mechanical, when the car speeds up the gas pedal goes down, and when I go down hill the car DOES speed up.

when I go up a hill, the engine revs up and so does speed (albeit slightly) then the speed stabilizes

my BMW's speed stays 100% constant regardless of gradient

NOT knowing your car it is possible for you to have set your cruise to say 110 and it could have crept up

either way on a hiway, 110 is still speeding

Speedometers are no longer mechanical devices, and are completely electronic nowadays, even if the needle itself is still a physical needle as opposed to a digital readout.

They use a sensor either on the transmission or a wheel.

As with all electronic devices, the speedometer is not guaranteed to be accurate UNLESS you have properly calibrated it against a known standard.

I can not find any requirement in Canadian car manufacturing standards that ever require them to calibrate their speedometers before they sell them to you.

Speedometers are definitely NOT accurate at all.

The odometer on my car is saying the speedometer is overshot by three kilometers. I'll verify this with a GPS, but it proves a point to myself. Cruise control held the speed well bellow the four dermit point threshold because I know about this and set it this way intentionally.

I can get a statement he'll allege I said about cruise control inadmissible by voir dire because there was a stop sign two kilometers behind myself, I came to a complete stop on. When you press the break, the cruise control automatically deactivates.

The 111km/h reading was most likely taken about five kilometers away, when two other vehicles were in close proximity. There was acceleration due to a passing that happened in the area. The officer will have a very difficult time proving which car performed that the pass, unless there was a witness to the incident. Snow drifts on the road slightly reduced visibility and you still can't see that far to start with. Even IF he was close enough to pick out the colour of the two closest cars (which he wasn't), mine and anther were a shade of black, the other guy turned down a side street.

The confusion on his part is explained by the mumble jumble I told him at the stop. And myself being a lone wolf the entire time I was visible. It was likely a good thing for myself, that he didn't reduce it to the speed that could be easily proven.

I used to work in the industry, .

Older speedo's I totally agree with you can be out, hence why UK law generally gave you 10% +/- 3mph.

Modern car's that is simply not the case and is really a Hail Mary defense. 99% of the speedos are balls on accurate.

The ONLY time they are out is IF you decide to change the rims and wheel size, that is the only time.

YES I will concede that there is a "chance" your speedo will be out, but in reality no.

The speedo gets it's reading from a Wheel Speed Sensor (initially) this along with other sensors feeds into the OBD, it's all digital.

The speedo itself has solid state electronics and a self test device, when its tested in factory, it is confirmed by computer by feeding a signal into

it is pure maths, a signal of a certain frequency deflects the needle a certain degree, there is no calibration, it either is or isnt.

The speedo itself and the needle reads off the speed, the needle is also set to zero and max, now during testing if it fails any test, the speedo is NOT repaired

it's not calibrated, it's sent back. The speedo is also tested after installation into the car again by computer, which can detect issues.

Older speedo needles had a spring, which is where you could get your inaccuracies

As I said of course they still can go faulty, but it is MORE common for a speedo to stop working through a faulty sensor or instrument itself rather than go "out" of

calibration.

Not saying you can't use it as a defense, it's just highly implausible that the speedo is out of wack, it just doesn't happen.

With all due respect

jsherk wrote:

Speedometers are no longer mechanical devices, and are completely electronic nowadays, even if the needle itself is still a physical needle as opposed to a digital readout.

They use a sensor either on the transmission or a wheel.

As with all electronic devices, the speedometer is not guaranteed to be accurate UNLESS you have properly calibrated it against a known standard.

I can not find any requirement in Canadian car manufacturing standards that ever require them to calibrate their speedometers before they sell them to you.

Speedometers are definitely NOT accurate at all.

Sorry the odo is saying your speedo is overshot by 3 kms? (doesnt make sense)

What are you trying to verify with your GPS ?

You already said above you set your cruise to 110, so you where speeding ? nes pas?

As I said I don't know what car you have,but it IS possible for the speed to have crept up.

Is your defense is going to be my cruise was set at 110 ? (guilty)

OR your defense is your cruise was set to 100 ?

stickz wrote:

The odometer on my car is saying the speedometer is overshot by three kilometers. I'll verify this with a GPS, but it proves a point to myself. Cruise control held the speed well bellow the four dermit point threshold because I know about this and set it this way intentionally.

I can get a statement he'll allege I said about cruise control inadmissible by voir dire because there was a stop sign two kilometers behind myself, I came to a complete stop on. When you press the break, the cruise control automatically deactivates.

The 111km/h reading was most likely taken about five kilometers away, when two other vehicles were in close proximity. There was acceleration due to a passing that happened in the area. The officer will have a very difficult time proving which car performed that the pass, unless there was a witness to the incident. Snow drifts on the road slightly reduced visibility and you still can't see that far to start with. Even IF he was close enough to pick out the colour of the two closest cars (which he wasn't), mine and anther were a shade of black, the other guy turned down a side street.

The confusion on his part is explained by the mumble jumble I told him at the stop. And myself being a lone wolf the entire time I was visible. It was likely a good thing for myself, that he didn't reduce it to the speed that could be easily proven.

The other thing I've read on here is the TC's are trained to estimate drivers speed by observation, they have a deviance of 5kmphs apparently, I think also a cop can site you for speeding by observing your rate of speed, pacing and of course radar, I believe he can say he observed you doing approx 110 and the crown would take his word over yours.

Again just going on some of the threads I have seen here.

bobajob wrote:

it's just highly implausible that the speedo is out of wack, it just doesn't happen.

Then you could make that same argument for radar and lidar and gas pumps. Oh wait, they calibrate gas pumps? Maybe gas pumps are accurate 99% of the time, but they need to be properly calibrated every so often to make sure. This should apply to radar/lidar/speedometers as well because police in Ontario are writing over 500,000 speeding tickets a year and collecting tens of millions of dollars based on uncalibrated devices.

My car is a 2008 hyundai sonata gls. The speedometer is a needle and there's an odometer that calculates average speed. These do not agree on which speed i'm travelling while cruise control is on. The odometer reads three kilometers less when left to average out for five minutes.

I don't not plan on using speedometer calibration as a defense. It's merely an indicator of the area for the locked in 111km/h radar reading. And that there's no way my speed could have accidentally pored into the four demerit point range while cruise control was on, due to overestimation.

And my cruise control was not set to 110km/h, it was intentionally set lower than this on my speedometer. I know I can't come out and say where my cruise control was set, this is why i'm challenging where the radar reading was taken. Because it was within the range of his radar gun and speeds were higher in that area, than what my cruise control was set at. It would be physically impossible for my cruise to read 111km/h.

I don't know about any other piece of equipment, what I am explaining is a piece of electronics I know.

On speedo's it has "nothing" to do with calibration, modern speedos' do not need to be calibrated, it is factory fixed and works

(or doesnt) if you look at a speedo, between the 0 and the bottom, there used to be a little notch that the speedo needle sat on,

that used to be the +/-10% that you could adjust, on modern speedo's that simply isnt there, because you CANT adjust it.

It is what it is, nothing is 100% yes I grant it, but you gotta better chance finding a 4 leaf clover

jsherk wrote:

bobajob wrote:

it's just highly implausible that the speedo is out of wack, it just doesn't happen.

Then you could make that same argument for radar and lidar and gas pumps. Oh wait, they calibrate gas pumps? Maybe gas pumps are accurate 99% of the time, but they need to be properly calibrated every so often to make sure. This should apply to radar/lidar/speedometers as well because police in Ontario are writing over 500,000 speeding tickets a year and collecting tens of millions of dollars based on uncalibrated devices.

I'm really not getting the point, and I'm sure its me

but any way, your speedo is accurate,

if you have a device that calculates average speed, great (I have that as well), but that means nothing, because it's an average speed.

as a final example,

hi way is 100kmh, you set cruise at 100, your speed could vary by 10% 20% ?

cruise is set to 110km, you where speeding, you can get deviation on the cruise,

they had you at 111, regardless of what you say your cruise was set to

so your cruise drifted, you where speeding,

if you are worried about the demerits dont between 0-49 over, it is still classified as a MINOR by your insurance.

only if you dont get conviction will it matter, dont sweat 3 or 4 points

you can plead it down I pleaded 49 down to the next band 29 ?

anyway

I'm going home now, have a great day

and good luck

stickz wrote:

My car is a 2008 hyundai sonata gls. The speedometer is a needle and there's an odometer that calculates average speed. These do not agree on which speed i'm travelling while cruise control is on. The odometer reads three kilometers less when left to average out for five minutes.

I don't not plan on using speedometer calibration as a defense. It's merely an indicator of the area for the locked in 111km/h radar reading. And that there's no way my speed could have accidentally pored into the four demerit point range while cruise control was on, due to overestimation.

And my cruise control was not set to 110km/h, it was intentionally set lower than this on my speedometer. I know I can't come out and say where my cruise control was set, this is why i'm challenging where the radar reading was taken. Because it was within the range of his radar gun and speeds were higher in that area, than what my cruise control was set at.

bobajob wrote:

cruise is set to 110km, you where speeding, you can get deviation on the cruise,

they had you at 111, regardless of what you say your cruise was set to

so your cruise drifted, you where speeding,

I know my cruise can drift, this is why I set to a spot where it couldn't. But saying where it was actually set, would be enough to invoke reasonable doubt in a court room. If I have to take the witness stand, it will be what I told the officer which is 99km/h. But I won't be doing this, unless I can establish the locked in radar reading was taken in the passing zone, that wasn't visible to the officer. If this can be done, he won't be able to prove that my cruise control was set higher than this, much less even on, after the stop sign (when my car was visible) due to voir dire - breaking for a stop sign, disengages the cruise control to slow down the vehicle; without admitting a fatal error in the speed on the ticket.

bobajob wrote:

if you are worried about the demerits dont between 0-49 over, it is still classified as a MINOR by your insurance.

only if you dont get conviction will it matter, dont sweat 3 or 4 points

you can plead it down I pleaded 49 down to the next band 29 ?

I already got a 38 down two levels to disobey sign because it was impossible to win it, due to the radar speed being verified by pacing.

This second ticket is going to be more serious on insurance but significantly easier to fight in trial due the situation.

bobajob wrote:

modern speedos' do not need to be calibrated, it is factory fixed and works

As with ALL electronics, including speedometers, they can drift and do not remain factory ficed forever.