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What determines disobey sign and bylaw improer turn?
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:44 am 
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Hello,

what determines between HTA and Municipal bylaw? There are some disobey sign $110 (eg. making a right turn between 4-6pm) and a bylaw improper turn (3-6pm) for 18.75. They both seem to be very similar..

My dad got a bylaw ticket for 18.75 for making a left turn into a small street on the invalid hours indicated. My brother got a disobey sign for making a similar turn on a different street at a different time frame.

The only difference is that the disobey sign has a stop sign prior to turning. And the bylaw is a straight left turn without stops.

can someone let me know what classifies as a bylaw and what doesn't?


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:44 am 
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Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!
The sign was placed there by the Municipality via a "bylaw" (law made by the city).

Highway Traffic Act, Regulation 615 lists all signs (dimensions, location etc..).

Offences:
1) receive an offence for disobeying a sign as put in to law by a "bylaw"
OR
2) if the sign meets the requirements of HTA REG 615, a charge can be laid using the HTA

So the in end a driver could be charged with either offence for the same sign.

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:46 pm 
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OK, so its all up to the discretion of the officer??

Can I argue that this is not a disobey sign charge?? instead it should be a bylaw improper turn charge?

Since all sings in-essence are placed by the city and are municipal bylaws.

so there is no clear definition to determine the two?


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Right turn Only Lane (Kennedy and Ellesmere)
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:26 am 
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Right turn Only Lane, but went straight.. is 182(2) correct?

Here is another disobey question.

I was on heading southbound on Kennedy towards Ellesmere and there are 3 lanes. Left turn, centre, and right turn lane. There was a sign posted with a right turn arrow, but that was posted almost 50 yards before the turn.. There is no visible sign where the turn is.

I went straight on that right turn lane and I merged onto the centre lane about 80 yards after I crossed the intersection.

The reason I didnt noticed that it was a right turn lane only cause beyond the intersection there was a lane for me to go straight. It wasn't like the lane cuts off and I had to merge onto centre lane in the middle of the intersection.

My questions is. Did the officer charge me correctly with disobey sign?
or can I argue that it should be Proceed contray to sign directed? or some other charge


Can I also argue that the sign was placed to far back for me to see it. They should have posted it at the intersection?? Should I even bother with that remark? it may seem like i don't pay attention while driving or something.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:05 am 
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Disobey sign is correct. The sign said right turn only in that lane and you did otherwise. You could argue the sign was too far back, but I don' think 50 meters is unreasonable.

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Re: Right turn Only Lane (Kennedy and Ellesmere)
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:38 am 
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Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!
Trigga wrote:
I was on heading southbound on Kennedy towards Ellesmere and there are 3 lanes. Left turn, centre, and right turn lane. There was a sign posted with a right turn arrow, but that was posted almost 50 yards before the turn.. There is no visible sign where the turn is.


There are 4 lanes SB on Kennedy at this location
- designated left turn lane
- 2 lanes straight thru
- designated right turn lane which has:
2 "no right hand turn signs" - 1 pole south of DQ, the other about 16 sidewalk sections (16m) from the intersection
PLUS
4 right turn arrows painted on the surface of the right turn lane, that starts 4 Hydro poles back of the intersection in front of DQ

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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 1:10 pm 
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Trigga wrote:
My questions is. Did the officer charge me correctly with disobey sign?
or can I argue that it should be Proceed contray to sign directed? or some other charge


In instances like this, both 182 (2) Disobey Sign and 144 (9) Proceed Contrary to Sign at Intersection apply. If the officer wanted to cut you a break (which is what happened to your father), they'll issue the by-law ticket.

Normally, the sign must be visible for at least 60 metres.

Your trial would probably be held at 1530 Markham Road. Most of the Prosecutors there try to get things done quickly, so if the officer doesn't show up, they'll just drop the charge. If not, they'll usually offer a plea-bargain of sorts (like the $18.75 by-law infraction). The main charges they really hammer people on are those caught driving suspended, driving without a licence, and driving without insurance (which happens quite a bit in Scarborough).

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http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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