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Do you think this is a fair justice system?
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Disobey Stop Sign/Fail to Stop-Back to Court on Same Ticket?
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:13 pm 
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:roll: I have a very serious problem and I don’t know what to do anymore. Can ANYONE provide assistance and Great information as I’m so confused I don’t know what to do..As Im back in court next month for same ticket I got last year??!!
I am, and always have been, a very conscientious and safe driver who really does obey all traffic and stop signs, and I have a very good driving record to prove it.
Today, I just came back from court where I tried to fight my own “Failure to Stop & Disobey Stop Sign ticket.
In April 2008, over 1 year ago now, I came into the city to go apartment housing hunting, as for health reasons, I needed affordable housing. I chose some buildings to look at when my name was placed on waiting lists in Toronto.
While driving around the block in downtown area looking for the addresses of these buildings, and found the location addresses of these places I was marking off, I KNOW I stopped at a 4 way intersection with a 4 way stop sign, and as there wasn’t cars around or anyone else, I proceeded slowly and continued my journey through the 4 way cross street, as it was safe to do because I was going to go back to see inside these buildings. I got to the next stop street at the lights, waited the 35 seconds for the light to turn green and made my right hand turn to go back around the block.
About just less than 1/2km away, from the building I was looking at, ON a busy downtown street, after turning right, is when I see this unmarked police car turn right also as he was behind me, he travelled a short distance more and then turned on his flashers , so immediately I pulled over. The officer got out in the busy street blocking all the traffic, and told me I went thru the stop sign way way over on the other block.
I know I didn’t and told him. After showing my license & registration he gives me a ticket for $110.00 for disobeyed / failed to stop at a stop sign/ HTA., and tells me, I can take it to court to “save my demerit points” and leaves :cry:

Well months and months later, I’ve now moved to this City a few months ago, and I’ve finally received my trial date shortly after I moved here, because it has been over 1 year since the “offense” happened. When I went to court today, I asked for judge for an adjournment, as I had no way to defend myself against the charge, due to I’ve had no disclosure received yet, until today. The prosecuting lady said she didn’t have any disclosure either, as the officer has it. So I need to get it from him.
I tried to tell His Worship, The Judge, I had sent disclosure request to Old City Hall and showed them all, my copy, that I had sent in some 5 weeks ago, as due to health, I haven’t been well recently, and I was also looking after my Best Friend who was in a coma in hospital past 4 months as well. (He’s doing much better now, Thanks to God).

WELL :twisted: … The Judge wasn’t happy! And at first,out right refused me an adjournment of any sorts, until I told him I really should qualify for a stay in these proceedings. He outright refused me "a stay", saying, I didn’t fill the right paperwork for a stay of trial, even though No disclosure ever given to me, and it has been over 1 year since the offense happened. Somehow I was able to stand there with a grief look on my face. And told judge, how do you expect me to defend myself against this charge when I don’t know what charge was about? After Lady Prosecutor says, “This IS a very very serious offense, so the judge begrudgingly, allowed me my preliminary motion until next month, and added you might have time to get your 11B completed the right way in the meantime. But also said it can take 6-12 weeks for one to be approved and couldn’t offer me where to get this 11B from? (Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom, section B11. ) :?:

For the disclosure, I myself had to run after the officer and get the copy of his notes, which only consisted of a copy of my ticket; he gave me for the offense last year in 2008, that had his chicken scribble and some abbreviations on it. With "10km…" on it, meaning without a radar gun, he saw me ”slow down to 10km and continue through raised cross walk & through stop sign. That’s it!
On my disclosure request I did ask for everything, including; full copy of all officer’s notes both sides, but he showed me other side was blank, typed version of any hand written notes, statements made by defendant or witnesses, etc. I asked for it all and got this photo copy of my ticket. :x

Officer says, I’ll need to submit yet another disclosure request, as he doesn’t have what I want available. But he does say And of course what he’ll “testify” to, that he says, he himself watched me, no obstructions, and no blinking, slow to 10km at a stop sign, of a non busy intersection, and watched me travel over an unmarked, but raised sidewalk. :oops:

So Far, I’ve seen who the judge will side with. And now, I’m sure it won’t be me. Then officer went on to say, If he has to give me Disclosure Request.. Where are all MY disclosures for him????And I didn’t think he gets any??
:shock: This must be his way of seeing how I was planning to defend for my defense..

I do not understand how officer can say what he did, as I know I DID stop, because I was apartment hunting while in Toronto, and where he claims I didn’t stop, was at one of the buildings I was looking for and found, as I have proof on my documents I have from geared to income homes.
I also don’t understand, why officer still followed me nearly ¾ of the way onto a downtown busy street, only to then stop me in bustling and busy traffic, while he could have stopped me when he was sitting behind me at the lights after I supposedly ran that stop sign, when that other street wasn’t busy at all.??!! :evil:
Now I have to go back to court to see this judge again next month to defend myself, and he can’t even tell me, nor ANYONE at court house can, where to get this 11B form that I so much need to be completed as my Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom are being ignored. :?

Besides, I really don’t think after what I saw today, Judge would allow any request for a stay of proceedings, no matter if my Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms have been infringed or not. I sure didn’t get any “speedy “trial, having to wait 14 months for my first trial, and now an extra month ½ for a second trial to defend myself?!??!!

Today, While running around up and down 4 floors repeatedly, at The Old Court House, looking for this 11B form, I realized there were quite a few other people officer he had ticketed, that he was there to help prosecute, as I guess he sure likes giving out Failure to stop at a stop sign tickets. It Must be an easy cash grab for the city because its so hard to defend yourself against.
I sure don’t think the Tourism board would be happy about this officer, because to me, he doesn’t resemble the good part of “Toronto the Good”.. :roll:

I’ve been to that site ticket-blasters, to prepare myself the past 2 months for fighting this bogus ticket charge, but after what I saw today… the judge and officer seem to do whatever they feel like doing. Carche Blank.
As If it wasn’t for me standing there in the court looking like a lost sheep, I don’t think I’d have even received the original preliminary motion I was begging for to defend myself.
I wonder what ever happened to real honest justice??
I guess because I stutter and get confused when under pressure, like speaking in front of a 1/2 full court room, they think I don’t have a brain in my head so I’ll believe whatever they tell me I’m suppose to have done. When I DO know different.. I stopped at that stop sign last year!!!!!!! :x
.
Can anyone provide any advice, help or suggestions on what next I can do?? As I am so sure of my innocence with every fiber of my body, I came to a complete stop at that intersection last year.
I’ve never been in a hurry to go anywhere too fast. But I’m not financially stable to give away $110.00 AND 3 demerit points. As Now, in the court, there wouldn’t be any offer on the table from the courts to accept a plea, But I do feel I need to stand up for my rights!!
Especially since I know I was right to begin with!!??
It’s all one big Cash Grab for the city and insurance companies at the expense of hard working people.

Does Anyone have some great ideas or suggestions for when I have to return back to court next month??

Signed….
Screwed by guys in blue

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I've always lived by the rules of Nature. Its the other ones you need to Be Aware of..


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Location: Toronto
When did you make your first disclosure request? The Crown is under no obligation to make any disclosure until it is first requested by the defendant. If it was at the five-week mark prior to the trial date (which is the impression I got), that might not be sufficient time for the Crown to put it together and the JP may not grant a stay or quash it due to improper disclosure, even if you had good reasons for not submitting it earlier.

If you're willing to go this route, a sure-fire way of keeping this away from your insurance company and reducing the fine is attempting to plea-bargain to a municipal by-law infraction. You can call them and see what they are willing to offer. Some Prosecutors are quite willing to accept it; they get the conviction, city gets some money, they don't care about the rest. It will result in no insurance increase or demerit points, just a fine.

If the plea-bargain is not something you want to do or they won't accept one, the best advice I can give is to submit another disclosure request indicating that you were not given what you had asked for, and ask for an explanation and clarification of the charge. The Crown must disclose a certified copy of the by-law that erected the STOP sign that you were alleged to have disobeyed. If they do not produce it, 15 days prior to your next trial file a motion for a stay based on improper disclosure. It may work, it may not; the time issue is the problem.

As for a right to a speedy trial, one year might be sufficient to be considered unreasonable delay, but it may not. I can't say for sure. Generally, the real "gold mine" of information regarding dealing with traffic tickets and the courts is this website: www.ticketcombat.com

Ticketcombat's website outlins exactly how to make the 11B application and many other things that you'll need to know. The introduction to stays is discussed here: http://www.ticketcombat.com/step4/works.php


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:35 am 
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Well Yes.. As Im not familuar with court stuff I didnt get disclosure request until begingin of April. :shock:
However last week I took your suggestion Radar of "a sure-fire way of keeping this away from your insurance company and reducing the fine is attempting to plea-bargain to a municipal by-law infraction. You can call them and see what they are willing to offer. Some Prosecutors are quite willing to accept it" .. and to date nobody had replied back to me as Ive emailed and tried to get a phone number..

I even called number at back of ticket and lines are always busy to speak with anybody.. and emailed them 2times this week.. :cry:
So Im waiting as maybe someone will call or write me next week now it being saturday.. but sent a email to POA ciurts again friday ..
or else I just have to go to trial as I had a lawyer friend (not involved in criminal law) get some CCRT B11 to kind of copy and get ideas what to do.. but he's not really allowed to help me much. :roll:
But thanks for your suggestion Radar..
Guess I'll just have to wait to see if they'll reply anyone reply back to me .. :(

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I've always lived by the rules of Nature. Its the other ones you need to Be Aware of..


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Did you get your answer?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 7:19 pm
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Location: City_Toronto
Nobody from the Prosecutors Office ever did return my calls or emails..
So.. I decided to take this all the way and fight it in court.
I did my research and was going to use the stand point from where the bus was blocking the stop sign, nobody would have seen the stop sign if a bus was sitting at the bus stop which was 1 1/2 ft away from stop sign..and I had alot of photo's to prove my case.
I even did everything including filing a B11 Motion as trial date was 13 months from ticket date.. and then when everything was inplace to finally have my day in court to prove my innocence, and vindicte myself 100%, my B11 motion was accepted because my trail date happened to be the first day of the city strike in June 09 and the court accepted most every B11 filed that day to get things moving quicker without city workers there..
So I owe the city strikers a -- Thanks..?? LoL!!

However;
Im Happy I won, and thanks to a favotite Ticket combat site that proved indispensible to me, I'm ready to fight the next ticket, my mother just got for going thru a no stright thruway between 7 am & 9am, because the morning sun was in her eyes and the 78 year old lady didnt see the sign with the sun in that location as impairing her vision to see the sign at 730am... however I find the French Language service Act will be helpful in this case.
Especially after 1 trial date was set and the Proscecutor still hasnt provided me full & complete disclosure of what her ticketig officer states happened, and Ive already had to set another trial date with my 3rd request for complete disclosure..
getting reday to file another B11 for my Mom's cas as I see I'll have a 4th disclosure request to send soon anyway..
Thanks all for your help!

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I've always lived by the rules of Nature. Its the other ones you need to Be Aware of..


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