So here I am, browsing this forum and wasn't able to find a related topic so I decided to start my own. On a way back from a trip to detroit on a motorcycle, I was stopped by a police officer (his disclosure form is attached) saying that I was speeding and passing trucks in 1 lane construction zone. Then he ended up giving me a ticket for (disobeying legal sign 100km/hr) based on a calculations he made approximating time and distance traveled, I explained to the officer that I certainly didn't do that, and for the truck, a truck driver drove into my lane (right hand side lane) in a two lane area which prompted me to speed up to evade him (none of this was mentioned in the disclosure form) and I also mentioned that I was doing the speed limit, a couple of shady things about the ticket I had: 1) The officer didn't pace me for more than 2 seconds, actually the moment he got behind me he opened up his cherry. 2) I was going as fast as the cars in front of me and I didn't even notice him since he had a completely unmarked car. 3) the 126km/hr mentioned in the disclosure is certainly not true as once I passed his SUV I changed to the right lane and doing the speed of the car in front of me thats behind a truck. Officer disclosure form attached and I've written it down in the following text: "Charge: HTA 182(2) disobey sign 401 east bound Furnival Rd, Rodney, ON exit 129 Motorcycle blue/black **wrong its blue/white** complainer name: complainer received traffic complaint 401 east bound in construction zone near Merlin rd, Ontario, dark motorcycle rider wearing blue helmet no plates obtained, motorcycle passing tts (Trucks) in single lane construction zone on left between them and barriers. i **officer** was at 130 east bound shoulder, stayed and observed, observe motorcycle east bound approaching from rr @ 129 in rearview / side mirror passing car in an onramp and shoulder @ hros **high rate of speed** -dnls- i got up to speed quickly, motorcycle came upon me and slowed-passed me slowly. i paced motorcycle east bound from 131 @ 126km/hr on speedo slowed down to 118-113. pulled over, advised driver reason for stop and of traffic complaint, driver acted oblivious. requested plcl complainer and have him stop at our location. driver kept trying to talk me out of taking enforcement action, complainder attended and immediately agreed that was the same backpack on deck metals, same bike driver description. said motorcycle passed 4-5 tts (Trucks) in construction. note other red tts honked at me approximately 2 minutes after stopping motorcycle. doing math: distance traveled 65km appx from complaint, time approx 25 minutes **officer did calculations** speed calculated 156km/hr average speed. Driver explained its not the case, said left from detroit apprx 5 pm, PON disobey sign @100km/hr maximum white/black sign limit. weather clear day sun, roads dry" also added to the disclosure form at the very end "20 minutes later, motorcycle was speed clocked by a speed trap on the highway doing 110km/hr" till the time I left I didn't understand what the ticket was for , the officer insisted that I was driving recklessly on the street with excessive speed and assumed the distances and time and calculated speed I got the ticket. I didn't try to talk him out of giving me a traffic enforcement, I was talking him into understanding that it wasn't me. yet, in a stressful situation my english revert back and I lose words, he took this sign of me stuttering as I'm lying to him. I'm not an angel but I that's not something I committed, I gave this ticket to a paralegal, he went for an early resolution (ER) and called me with a reduced charge of 115km/hr so I refused because the charge should be fully dropped. Now I'm kind of questioning his ability in court since he went for ER without reading the disclosure form, he wasn't very enthusiastic reading the disclosure/going for trial. However, I declined his offer and im going to trial. Any help would be appreciated cuz I believe I will be standing for myself in court. My court date is in January, 2017 in Elgin County Courthouse. Thanks for your comments. ****** Please, post if you know, or have knowledge of this or similar issues, otherwise please advise that it is just your personal opinion. ****** What do I see wrong in this ticket, everything. How many motorcycles were traveling down the highway, how long did the reporting process take from the truck driver noticing the motorcycle till he parked to make the phonecall, (im sure he didn't stop in a one lane construction zone and impede traffic) how credible is the truck driver, did he have anything to drink? no license plate reported. if its true and the motorcycle was passing with 160km/hr by the trucks how was he able to identify the type of motorcycle with such speed. does the description of a dark motorcycle constitute a blue/white motorcycle, or did the officer just want to give a ticket?
If the officer says the speedometer matched the radar in the car, then they need to prove the radar was calibrated. Of course they do this by saying they followed the manufacturers instructions, which say press the test button and then check to see if the speed on radar matches the speedometer. They test the radar by checking it with speedometer. They then check the speedometer by checking it against the radar. Anybody see a problem with this? Anyways, you then need to convince the JP that just because the speedometer and radar are the same, does NOT mean that either is accurate. It just means they are both equally inaccurate. Without an external test to confirm one or the other is accurate, then they can not be assumed to be accurate just by testing against each other. Unfiortunately our court systems do not seem to use logic, so this is a hard argument to convince anybody of.
If the officer says the speedometer matched the radar in the car, then they need to prove the radar was calibrated. Of course they do this by saying they followed the manufacturers instructions, which say press the test button and then check to see if the speed on radar matches the speedometer.
They test the radar by checking it with speedometer. They then check the speedometer by checking it against the radar. Anybody see a problem with this? Anyways, you then need to convince the JP that just because the speedometer and radar are the same, does NOT mean that either is accurate. It just means they are both equally inaccurate. Without an external test to confirm one or the other is accurate, then they can not be assumed to be accurate just by testing against each other. Unfiortunately our court systems do not seem to use logic, so this is a hard argument to convince anybody of.
Thanks Screeech and Jsherk, If he had a radar he has no reason not to use it, as its a cutting edge technology. I've had a friend of mine stopped with high rate of speed ticket and was taken off cuz officer didnt have a radar on him and was based on his opinion. officers lie too, we all know that and the JP knows that. thats the reason radar is invented and the reason they have periodical calibration, otherwise they would not even put radars and cameras on their cruisers if people can get tickets based on officer observations. again, officer was waiting for a motorcycle to come. he should be ready on the road to use his technology to catch the speeding motorcycle, there is no reason not to. if im not mistaken.
Thanks Screeech and Jsherk,
If he had a radar he has no reason not to use it, as its a cutting edge technology. I've had a friend of mine stopped with high rate of speed ticket and was taken off cuz officer didnt have a radar on him and was based on his opinion. officers lie too, we all know that and the JP knows that. thats the reason radar is invented and the reason they have periodical calibration, otherwise they would not even put radars and cameras on their cruisers if people can get tickets based on officer observations.
again, officer was waiting for a motorcycle to come. he should be ready on the road to use his technology to catch the speeding motorcycle, there is no reason not to. if im not mistaken.
Thats is not a good argument in my opinion. Speeding is a specific number above the posted speed limit (lets use 120 in a 100). So the officers opinion that you were doing 120 does not cut it. However you are facing a disobey sign charge. So now the officer's opinion is not about a specific speed, but just that you were going faster than the posted limit. So the JP will MOST LIKELY believe the officer. Now if you can find some case laws where the officers opinion of speed was thrown out (even with speeding tickets) then this would be good case law to bring up in your situation to help sway the JP back to your side.
Thats is not a good argument in my opinion.
Speeding is a specific number above the posted speed limit (lets use 120 in a 100). So the officers opinion that you were doing 120 does not cut it.
However you are facing a disobey sign charge. So now the officer's opinion is not about a specific speed, but just that you were going faster than the posted limit. So the JP will MOST LIKELY believe the officer.
Now if you can find some case laws where the officers opinion of speed was thrown out (even with speeding tickets) then this would be good case law to bring up in your situation to help sway the JP back to your side.
Actually, you don't need radar, or lidar to prove speeding...the actual number given to the speeding charge is for sentencing purposes only...So, yes, the officer's opinion can cut it when he can state a motor vehicle was speeding...officer cannot say 120 in a 100 zone and give a ticket for that, however, the officer can say the motor vehicle was speeding-based on his observations-ipso facto disobeying a sign as in this case...
Actually, you don't need radar, or lidar to prove speeding...the actual number given to the speeding charge is for sentencing purposes only...So, yes, the officer's opinion can cut it when he can state a motor vehicle was speeding...officer cannot say 120 in a 100 zone and give a ticket for that, however, the officer can say the motor vehicle was speeding-based on his observations-ipso facto disobeying a sign as in this case...
Thanks for your replies, So I guess the officer was smart to give me the disobey legal sign rather than speeding since its near to impossible to throw it off. I'm going to keep researching, is there a way to find out about cases and precedents in courts online? Regards, NM
Thanks for your replies,
So I guess the officer was smart to give me the disobey legal sign rather than speeding since its near to impossible to throw it off.
I'm going to keep researching, is there a way to find out about cases and precedents in courts online?
They do not think they need to provide them, so most likely you wont get them. But I am still working on those anyways... just had a motion to try and get those but was denied by JP. My next step will be Charter challenge at the next trial date. Then hopefully onto Appeal court at some point to try and get a Judge to agree they need to be released.
They do not think they need to provide them, so most likely you wont get them.
But I am still working on those anyways... just had a motion to try and get those but was denied by JP. My next step will be Charter challenge at the next trial date. Then hopefully onto Appeal court at some point to try and get a Judge to agree they need to be released.
You can ask for them in disclosure. You won't get them so you'll then have to convince the Justice that he should order the Crown to get them for you. He won't.
You can ask for them in disclosure. You won't get them so you'll then have to convince the Justice that he should order the Crown to get them for you.
He won't.
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !
Thanks everyone for your comments, im preparing for my trial date beginning of January. I haven't yet requested information regarding the vehicle, if any of you could walk me through the process I deeply appreciate it. Best regards,
Thanks everyone for your comments,
im preparing for my trial date beginning of January. I haven't yet requested information regarding the vehicle, if any of you could walk me through the process I deeply appreciate it.
Most likely they wont give you any information about the vehicle. You can ask, and you should say why you think it is relevant and then when they don't give it to you, it gives you one more reason to win on an appeal.
Most likely they wont give you any information about the vehicle. You can ask, and you should say why you think it is relevant and then when they don't give it to you, it gives you one more reason to win on an appeal.
So basically you're saying that I should ask for this information at the court date? thanks
jsherk wrote:
Most likely they wont give you any information about the vehicle. You can ask, and you should say why you think it is relevant and then when they don't give it to you, it gives you one more reason to win on an appeal.
So basically you're saying that I should ask for this information at the court date?
Hi everyone. I'm asking for a friend who has a question of interpretation.
He was ticketed for using a hand-held device. He contends that he was acting within the exemption provided under Subsection 14 (1) of O. Reg. 366/09, which reads as follows (emphasis added):
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