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48km/h over on 401
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:30 am 
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This ticket is going back to November 2, 2008 and is a bit long winded. I will try and break it down into parts.

1. It was 2-3AM and I was heading back home along the 401 on my motorcycle, it was EXTREMELY cold to say the least and I will never ever ride in temperatures like that again. Coming along so late the traffic was light so I had my high beams on to light up the road a bit better. I am in the middle lane of the Express Eastbound and as I come around the bend and up the little hill just after Allen Road the back of a police car lights up due to my high beams. The cop car is well up the road and when I saw a vehicle ahead I immediately shut down my high beams. I looked down at my speedo and it said 120km/h give or take. So I slowed it down to 110km/h and kept a steady pace. I finally pass him almost right at Avenue Road which is almost 2 exits after I initially saw him driving ahead. I slowly pass him and after going passed Yonge st he pulls behind me and puts on his lights. I pull over, somewhat thankful as my hands were frozen. He comes over and asks me if I knew how fast I was going and I answered 120km/h. He then starts telling me that I was doing 148km/h and 2km/h more and he would be taking my bike, I simply said ok and gave him my information. He comes back and gives me the ticket and basically thats the end of that.

2.
I submit for a court date and then fax in 2 requests for disclosure using the ticketcombat form and information. My first court date comes up at September, 2009 and I had received no communication or information about my disclosure. So I show up and tell the prosecutor that I have yet to receive my disclosure, she tells me to go inside. So the officer is there and i get called up and I state I have not received disclosure after 2 faxes. The prosecutor has both my requests in her file and basically asks for an adjournment to provide me disclosure. The date is January 20, 2010 for the next date and I am told disclosure should be ready in a few days. So about 1-2 weeks goes by and I get 2-3 calls saying it's ready, interesting they couldn't call me before but now all of a sudden its a priority and they call me multiple times to leave messages. So I go down to the court house and pickup the disclosure and am almost floored at how little I actually received.

The disclosure consisted of 7 lines of officers notes which are not legible, I had requested a typed copy along with the originals yet only received the original hand written notes. There was also a couple notes on the actual ticket itself. So I do my research and talk to some people who say that the disclosure I got is incomplete and that based on the situation I should be able to get off without a problem. I pull some past cases from reference and do alot of reading and get prepared for my court date. I submitted for an 11b but it was about 3 days before the trial date as I wasn't aware about the proper procedures for that.

3. Full of confidence I go to court and the prosecutor asks me if i'd like to take a deal of 20 over, 2 points and $90. I say no I am ready to go to trial and explain I haven't received proper disclosure and that I will be making a motion for a stay based on submitting for the 11b. She asks the officer to go over his notes with me which I am not ok with and don't accept as reasonable for me to prepare my case. While talking the officer doesn't even remember the stop, he is going on about how he came up behind me and what lane he was in and what lane I was in. Then he gets to his notes which states "M/C coming up on rear fast". After reading that he stumbles and corrects himself saying that I came up on his rear. So i'm thinking even better, he doesn't have an independent recollection of the events and I can probably pick him apart. About halfway through the court the prosecutor hands a note to the officer who motions for me to come outside with him. He tells me that the JP presiding today does not allow arguments of speeders and that I should think about what I am going to do before I get called up. So i'm thinking in my head, awesome they are trying to push me into a deal because they know they have nothing.

WRONG...I get up and I am asked how I plead and I state that I would like to make a motion for a stay of proceedings as my charter right to a trial within a reasonable time has been violated. Before I can even explain the timeline the JP cuts me off and tells me he is denying it. So I am a bit annoyed at this but I then mention that I have yet to receive full and complete disclosure and that the notes of the officer are illegible. The JP states that it only should take 5 minutes to go over the notes with the officer and you should be able to prepare a proper defence. Then the prosecutor starts spewing non-sense about how the disclosure went to the wrong office and that I didn't include the officers badge number and that was the reason I didn't get it on time. This doesn't explain the lack of information provided and I faxed the request to the correct office as per ticketcombat.

So I request an adjournment so I can receive proper disclosure and seek legal counsel to which the JP denies. He proceeds to tell me to think about what I am going to do and sit down. He states that all the prosecutor has to do is ask the officer if he caught me speeding, what speed and if the radar was tested and that I will be convicted. He mentioned that speeding is an absolute liability and that there is no defence to speeding (I think this is the correct term). For someone who is supposed to not have pre-conceived judgements this is a little scary.

So I think about it and am still ready to go to trial and the JP tells me the same thing that he is basically 100% going to convict me. So I go quite and the Prosecutor finally says that she would recommend an adjournment as she could tell I felt pressured to make a decision.

So here I am with another court date, March 9 2010, and trying to get some last minute planning in.

The disclosure has no mention of radar testing procedures, whether it passed or failed, no description or plate of my bike. It also says that he locked my vehicle with the radar first and then secondly identified my vehicle as being the one going that fast. I will post up the exact notes shortly but hope this is a start.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:53 am 
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What exactly did you ask for in your previous disclosure requests?
Did you ask for a copy of the radar manual?
Did you ask for information about HOW and WHEN the radar device was tested on the day of the infraction?
You are entitled to the above (if you asked for it)

Disclosure is only incomplete if you didn't receive something that you asked for. i.e. if you didn't ask for it, you're not going to get it!

It's very unfortunate that you were intimidated by the JP like that. Very unprofessional.

You next court date is only 6 days away. Hopefully someone with more experience will reply to you shortly. If you asked for the items above, then disclosure is still incomplete.

Please post the notes as soon as you can.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:16 pm 
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Your 11b will hold up now. What are we at 15 months from the infraction date?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:55 pm 
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neo333 wrote:
What exactly did you ask for in your previous disclosure requests?
Did you ask for a copy of the radar manual?
Did you ask for information about HOW and WHEN the radar device was tested on the day of the infraction?
You are entitled to the above (if you asked for it)

Disclosure is only incomplete if you didn't receive something that you asked for. i.e. if you didn't ask for it, you're not going to get it!

It's very unfortunate that you were intimidated by the JP like that. Very unprofessional.

You next court date is only 6 days away. Hopefully someone with more experience will reply to you shortly. If you asked for the items above, then disclosure is still incomplete.

Please post the notes as soon as you can.


I took the form from ticketcombat and basically used that. I requested a full copy of the officers notes, a copy of both sides of the officers ticket, a typed version of any hand written notes, any audio or video recordings and I requested to be advised of any information not being disclosed.

I didn't request the manual and the testing should be in the officers notes as far as I know, you shouldnt have to request this specifically.

Yes I agree the JP was very unprofesssional and I am wondering if there is anything I can do about this or if it's a lengthy process?

If necessary I will scan the notes but here is the jist of it after deciphering the horrible writing.

Officers Notes
HB80-6010
Sun lttrff
lead-L2
Bee 3-MPH
RDR7043
target - locked
M/C coming up
on rear fast!

On the ticket he wrote
I was in L1 - 90km /100km target

Things to note, Bee3-MPH is apparently the Radar model and the RDR9043 is the serial of the unit in the car. From the ticket he is claiming he was going 90km I assume which is absolutely not true considering it took 2 full highway exits for me to pass him going 110km/h

Also I just had my motorcycle fairings repainted grey and the ticket lists that the bike is black, guessing they look at the ownership for the color which hadn't been changed as the fairings were put on not long before this.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:00 pm 
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Reflections wrote:
Your 11b will hold up now. What are we at 15 months from the infraction date?


Yeah pretty much, I worry that it won't hold up because they may look at the last adjournment as my fault? Eventhough I was prepared to go to trial but the JP basically was telling me he was convicting me before the trial so I had no options.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:50 am 
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600cbr wrote:
Reflections wrote:
Your 11b will hold up now. What are we at 15 months from the infraction date?


Yeah pretty much, I worry that it won't hold up because they may look at the last adjournment as my fault? Eventhough I was prepared to go to trial but the JP basically was telling me he was convicting me before the trial so I had no options.


Even then your 11b argument had merit, just not the timing, 15 day prior to trial, blah, blah. Someone else might weigh in on this...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:34 pm 
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Any thoughts/input on the lack of disclosure? There is no notes about the radar being tested before and after the stop which I believe a precedent was set by R V Schelinger(spelling?). Also not much description of anything in the notes, looking for anything that I can use as reference when presenting my case to the JP.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:04 pm 
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600cbr wrote:
I didn't request the manual and the testing should be in the officers notes as far as I know, you shouldnt have to request this specifically.


Actually neo333 raised a key point in speeding defence when he asked about the manual. The manual tells you how to test and use the device. The officer is not required (and won't) write in his notes what was done to test the device, only things like "tested @ 9:55 AM ok." Without the manual, you have no admissible evidence that would enable you to prove to the court that the device was tested/used properly or not.

Not noting the test times, however... I think R. v. Schlesinger addresses this quite nicely and I'd be ready to use that as a relevant argument at trial...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:31 pm 
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Radar Identified wrote:
600cbr wrote:
I didn't request the manual and the testing should be in the officers notes as far as I know, you shouldnt have to request this specifically.


Actually neo333 raised a key point in speeding defence when he asked about the manual. The manual tells you how to test and use the device. The officer is not required (and won't) write in his notes what was done to test the device, only things like "tested @ 9:55 AM ok." Without the manual, you have no admissible evidence that would enable you to prove to the court that the device was tested/used properly or not.

Not noting the test times, however... I think R. v. Schlesinger addresses this quite nicely and I'd be ready to use that as a relevant argument at trial...


I guess that was my mistake on not asking for the manual. And now I am trying to find a manual for it online with no luck, only found the brochure about it.

When I asked the officer at the last date about "testing" he claimed the radar tests itself every 20 minutes automatically which I highly doubt.

I am sure there must be an external testing procedure otherwise we are relying on the device to test itself. Crossing my fingers for tomorrow that the R. v. Schlesinger and other points about the lack of information help. I am hoping to raise the point that it would be impossible for him to have tracked my vehicle to determine I may have been speeding and then use the radar to confirm. I am confident his radar popped up a number and he decided that the first vehicle behind him was the one going that speed.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:17 am 
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600cbr wrote:
I am sure there must be an external testing procedure otherwise we are relying on the device to test itself.


We've had an extensive (and on-going, unresolved) debate regarding whether or not internal tests are sufficient. My contention was, and is, that they are not. The in-car radar devices that are affixed to the patrol vehicles typically are tested by an officer driving down the road and verifying the radar readout matches that of his calibrated speedometer, in addition to any internal/self tests that the radar has done. In that case, an external test has been performed.

However... this is 1 day after your trial... how did it go?

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