Speeding ticket

I got speeding ticket 60 (reduced from 64) in 40 zone, i requested for disclosure of ofiicer's note (typed), calibration record, training record...but only received the copy of the ticket. the back side has officer note but unreadable.

should i sent another request for a typed version of the officer's note?

As for calibration record, training record, do i have to get from police station thru "freedom of info" act or from prosecutor office?

thanks in advance for any help

Resend the request asking for a typed version. An example request form is on my site under Step 4.

The prosecutor has to provide you with access to evidence that shows the device was working properly and the officer was properly qualified to use it. They may deem the calibration record or training record unnecessary but they have to show some type of evidence, not just the witness testimony.

If they don't, you've got an excellent section 7 Charter argument to stay the trial.

I checked out your site, ticketcombat. thanks for all the work.

I could not find any link or any example you mentioned on your site under offence menu

"On the left hand side of this page under the Offence menu are links to specific charges and suggestions as to what to request in disclosure."

"but they have to show some kind of evidence"

just what kind of evidence

"section 7 charter arguement to stay the trial"

is this what i just state to the judge or prosecutor??

My court date is TODAY!!

Edge, I'm in the process of updating the site with more examples of how to fight specific charges. However, to find the disclosure form go to STEP 4 -->disclosure on the right hand side menu (discussion board rules do not allow me to link to my own site).

klayymann, you've left it too late. I suspect you also haven't requested disclosure. If the cop is there, then ask the judge for an adjournment. State you've just discovered this thing called disclosure and you want to be prepared for trial.

thanks!!! great site!!

could the judge deny my request?? what would be my response??

The judge cannot deny you your constitutional right to defend yourself using any means possible! Disclosure is an integral part of your defence.

Do see if the cop does not show up. If he's not there, you've won on the spot. Ask for adjournment if the cop is there, arguing that you did not know about disclosure, but just found out about it yesterday.

thanks for the great info, i'm heading out now, i'll report back later on today!!!

so much for an adjournment....

i'm an idiot!! and a great lesson has been learned, do not goto trial without being prepared (disclosure) .

in my case today the cop was there, i plead not guilty again to the prosecutor she stated that she would try and get me charged at the original speed i was clocked at (73 in a 50 instead of the reduced amount) and then she read the disclosure on the back of the ticket (which had almost everything about the incident and the radar unit) she really did her homework it seems !!it was at that moment that i figured you know what, i'll end it now, take my $53 dollar lump no points so i plead guilty.

one relief was that as i was paying the fine another guy in line who represents a trucking firm and is in court all the time told me i got the meanest prosecutor outta the bunch.

i hang my head in shame. whats worse is i have another damn speeding ticket court date is April, maybe better left with a paralegal...

Thanks ticketcombat, i found example of disclosure on your site.

I am researching the 11b process as it defintely becomes handy in the future.

Do-it-yourself is quite a bit of work and bit intimidated too in the court room but learning a lot in the process.

I'll take my chance, worst case i loose i'll pay the fine(24 over)+3points, but it's not the end of the world.

Hmm, two speeding tickets in such a short time. Maybe you should just do the speed limit.........just a thought

just bad timing i havent had a speeding ticket in over 8 yrs then i get two in the space of 3 months. both were in the neighbourhood of 20km over.

I requested the 2nd diclosure for typed version of the note and cal record, training record... but received the same illegible written note again. There is no point for the 3rd request, isn't it?

My court day is in June , i plan the motion to stay the charge on two grounds:

1. unresonable delay as per section 11b of the charter of right (11 months from offence day)

2. improper disclosure as per section 7 of the charter of right (illegible note, no calibration record and no traning record realeased)

Any comment on the next step would be appreciated.

P.S: Does anybody know what the phone and fax number for Ontario court of justice (for court house 1530 Markham rd.)? Google gave me many numbers but not quite matched and fit the name "Ontario court of Justice". Thanks in advance

The fax numbers I have are: 416-338-7703 (Prosecutor) and 416-338-7700 (Court House). Just double check my numbers especially for the clerk of the court. You don't want to blow it over a simple mistake.

Second Speeding ticket to fight (not reduced so I had to fight), totally prepped this time and no disclosure from the prosecutors office so i was going for the lack of disclosure, waited and my appearance was adjorned because of a case that was going into overtime, two week delay and a date set by the officer. well apr 29 was that date and i was back, still no disclosure and my only defence. on the court posting the officer was only attending my case, so i was wondering if he would show up. HE DIDNT SHOW UP!!! i was a free man!!!

Whats the lesson learned?? be prepared, do some research, you can do this yourself, but most importantly dont get a ticket in the first place!

Klayymann

klayymann wrote:

Second Speeding ticket to fight (not reduced so I had to fight), totally prepped this time and no disclosure from the prosecutors office so i was going for the lack of disclosure, waited and my appearance was adjorned because of a case that was going into overtime, two week delay and a date set by the officer. well apr 29 was that date and i was back, still no disclosure and my only defence. on the court posting the officer was only attending my case, so i was wondering if he would show up. HE DIDNT SHOW UP!!! i was a free man!!!

Whats the lesson learned?? be prepared, do some research, you can do this yourself, but most importantly dont get a ticket in the first place!

Klayymann

Congratulations! I had an identical story 2 years ago.

Awesome results klayymann. No conviction anyway you can get it is a win in my book.

Ticketcombat, your site was essential in the research i did. Thanks!

looking back at my first ticket i should have immediately asked for an adjornment!! keep pushing those dates back if you can.

Question i have...

I asked for both disclosure and discovery via certified mail, the cop called me a week after and told me that i had to apply at the prosecuters office (which i did), could i have ignored his advise and just waited for a return letter?? he did mention that manuals refering to the radar used are at the office, but i didnt see them when i applied in person.

Thanks for your comments on my site. I like to hear that it helps people!

You only send disclosure to the Crown. It's their responsibility to provide it to you. (They usually forward it to the cop, but let them do that).

Most Crown offices have a binder with every laser and radar manual. Your request to see it is almost never responded to except to copy the testing pages. If you push for it, they usually allow you to view it at their office. But you don't want to push for it. Use the lack of disclosure to apply for a stay.

Does anyone know where i can locate the following readings to use as references for my 11(b) application?

R. v. Mastroianni, [2000] O.J. No. 3227 at pg. , (Ont. Ct. Jus. In Appeal),

R. v. Formosa, [1998] O.J. No. 4674 (Ont. Ct. Jus.).

Thanks

ticketcombat wrote:

...Use the lack of disclosure to apply for a stay.

Is a "stay" the same as a "dismissal" (or finding of not-guilty).

Not getting convicted can happen in three ways:

- the charge is withdrawn

- you are found not guilty

- the charge is stayed.

Stay means stop. Stop all proceedings. You are not found innocent. You are not found guilty. It just stops, though technically it's still on the books. And it stays that way.

liveontheedge wrote:

Does anyone know where i can locate the following readings to use as references for my 11(b) application?

R. v. Mastroianni, [2000] O.J. No. 3227 at pg. , (Ont. Ct. Jus. In Appeal),

R. v. Formosa, [1998] O.J. No. 4674 (Ont. Ct. Jus.).

Thanks

http://www.canlii.org

Reflections wrote:

liveontheedge wrote:

Does anyone know where i can locate the following readings to use as references for my 11(b) application?

R. v. Mastroianni, [2000] O.J. No. 3227 at pg. , (Ont. Ct. Jus. In Appeal),

R. v. Formosa, [1998] O.J. No. 4674 (Ont. Ct. Jus.).

Thanks

http://www.canlii.org

if you please provide the link

i search for "Mastroianni 2000" or "Formosa 1998" but no relevant case came up

So i plan to go to 1530 Markham today to submit Form 4F to the prosecutor and to the court, and will fax the form to Attorney general of Canada and of Ontario later today.

I went to prosecutor office 1st, the receptionist was very hostile and she only stamped 3 copies. She kept one and I took 2 copies down to 1st floor to serve the court.

It was packed with people and it took me 2.5 hours waiting.

Finally it was my turn and the clerk told me she needed confirmation that i have served the Attorney general of Canada and of Ontario (the prosecutor stamp already there). I told her that i would fax to them when i get back to work, she then refused to stamp the form and told me to come back after getting the other 2 confirmations.

I explained to her that i didnot know that, that i was also told on the phone that i could fax the form to the court or submit it in person. And that if i was to fax the form then how she could be able to comfirm the the other two faxes.

She said who told me to fax here, form 4F must be submitted in person, fax is not accepted. (story is different from what i was told over the phone, it seems to me the word "4F" really ticked them off)

But i chose to submit it in person and here i was wating for 2.5 hours to be told that i have to come back to start again.

I also asserted that if she did not want to stamp the form i would need to know what her name is. She pulled back a bit.

She finally talked to another clerk who said that they could stamp the form (or whatever paper i give to them) and put into the file but there is no guarentee that it will be delivered.

They both then walked away and finally the 1st clerk came back and stamped the form.

My question: is it possible that the form got stamped but it will be sitting on the file and not delivered as the clerk said?

Does that mean I need to come back and do it again after faxing to the Attorney general of Canada and of Ontario? I have untill this friday to decide if i have to come back to redo it.

This stuff drives me nuts. Good for you that you held your ground. I actually updated my site this weekend with even more information on stay applications because too many court clerks are out of control.

The job of the clerk is to deliver the document to the court. The court decides if it's valid, NOT the clerk. You have done your part. You delivered the document to the court and the prosecutor and the AGs by now. Just keep the fax receipts as proof of service. You're done.

Good luck with the stay by the way!

liveontheedge wrote:

Reflections wrote:

liveontheedge wrote:

Does anyone know where i can locate the following readings to use as references for my 11(b) application?

R. v. Mastroianni, [2000] O.J. No. 3227 at pg. , (Ont. Ct. Jus. In Appeal),

R. v. Formosa, [1998] O.J. No. 4674 (Ont. Ct. Jus.).

Thanks

http://www.canlii.org

if you please provide the link

i search for "Mastroianni 2000" or "Formosa 1998" but no relevant case came up

Enter it like you typed it here

Thanks Ticketcombat and Reflections.

Lesson learned for other members submitting Form 4F:

Ontario Court of Justice is your last stop, the clerk may require you to show confirmation that you already serve The Attorney general of Canada, of Ontario and the prosecutor office.

Charge: Speeding 60 (reduced from 64) in 40 zone, 11+ months delay, 1st trial day, illegible officers note.

I went to court in the morning to check the docket, the cop only had 2 cases for the day. My thinking was that 80% he would not show up. I went back in the afternoon for my trial, I was wrong the cop showed up (for only 2 cases???) (My guess was that the 11b threshold is 1 year, so they want the 2 cases 11 and 11+ months going to trial to kill the 11b chance before its birth)

I posted before about the Court clerk requiring proof of serving 4F to Attorney General of Can and of On or she would not stamp the form or the form would not be delivered.

The JP had my 4F and the Crown said my paper was in proper order after checking my faxes to the 2 Attorney Gen. This confirmed that the court clerk did b*llsh*t me by requiring proof of serving the 2 Attorney generals when submitting form 4F.

My stay application had only form 4F and attachments (notice of trial, copies of tickets, officers note…) I did not use affidavit.

My first line of defense was the charter motion s11(b) and s7 (I didnt expect a stay),if failed I would request an adjournment due to inadequate disclosure (I expected this to be the outcome) if failed and they force the trial, I would invoke the interpreter right to put the trial over. If the trial takes place I have a long list of questions for Mr. officer on the witness stand including taking me thru the 4 lidar tests in details (its good for the officer to review it once in a while)

To justify the request for disclosure I printed case law R. v. Abrey, [2007] S.J. No. 331 in paragraph [6] the Crown was ordered to produce typed copy of the officers note.

I only found one case in CanLii, R. v. Wheeler, 2007 CanLII 14854 (NL P.C.) para[8] where calibration log and repair history were provided (In other cases the court found that the cal log and repair history were relevant and ordered the search for them)

There are many case laws supporting the disclosure of Lidar/Radar manual and officers training certificate (no need to list here).

I checked in with the prosecutors, there were 2 of them: Junior (trainee) and Senior.

They both tried to get me plead guilty for 10 over numerous times throughout the break. They said that my delay was less than one year and if I lost the charter motion, the deal would be off and the original charge of 64km/h would be used (Mr. officer yelled out "64 not 60" from the back of the court room to inform me of his presence).

The Senior asked if I had representative to argue my charter motion, I said I would do it myself. (I think he felt better)

There was a lady with stop sign ticket also wanting to go to trial. The Senior decided that he would take my speeding case and the Junior would do the lady stop sign case. My case went up first.

After arraignment, I read:" Prior to enter a plea Your Worship, I move that these proceedings be stayed on the grounds that"

I memorized them but at this point I was so nervous that I just read it from my note. The JP cut me off "Stop".

I thought he was going to throw the book at me for reading a phrase copied from Ticketcombat site, but no, he figured that I did request interpreter on the Notice of Trial and wanted to know why there was no interpreter present. The Court clerk confirmed that interpreter was ordered. The Senior Crown apologized and asked the JP for a short delay to page the interpreter.

The lady stop sign case went forward. The Junior did a good job in the hall way of convincing her to plead guilty. One minute, her case was done. My case was called back.

No interpreter responded, the Senior tried his last pitch, asked me if I was comfortable to proceed without interpreter. I told him my listening was not that good. He then told the court that he had no choice but to withdraw the charge. Bingo! My day off work (from vacation) was well worth it.

There was no way of knowing how the stay application and the disclosure battle would unfold.

Thanks to everybody in the forum, special thanks to Ticketcombat and his website for guiding me thru the whole process and answering many questions (in here and in RFD)

Sorry if it was a long reading, I tried to have as much info in as I could, hoping to help anyone looking to defend his/her case.

Good job. They aren't as big and scary as they seem....