My son was puled over last week on the Hwy.The Officer stated that someone had called and reported his vechical driving erraticly and crossing over the lanes.The officer said that he had not witnessed this but it was reported. The weather condition was rain. He is in his 20's and had 2 other youths in his vechical with him. He was asked if he or anyone else in the car was drinking that day.They said no that they were playing ball all day, and were just returning home. He was asked if he was tired or had not slept much.He said he was fine. The officer took his regestration and licience to his car then returned with a ticket for "Failing to drive in marked lane".When he asked why he was being given this ticket he was told "Well if you perfer, I can give you a ticket for rekless driving instead Is this a just ticket. ??How can someone be given a ticket on hear say?? The officer did not even witness anything, and why bully my son when he asked why he way being given the ticket. If this was an older pereson and not a youth, would they have been given a ticket, or whold thet have been told "just be careful driving home".. Any advise Is this a valid offence?
My son was puled over last week on the Hwy.The Officer stated that someone had called and reported his vechical driving erraticly and crossing over the lanes.The officer said that he had not witnessed this but it was reported.
The weather condition was rain.
He is in his 20's and had 2 other youths in his vechical with him. He was asked if he or anyone else in the car was drinking that day.They said no that they were playing ball all day, and were just returning home. He was asked if he was tired or had not slept much.He said he was fine.
The officer took his regestration and licience to his car then returned with a ticket for "Failing to drive in marked lane".When he asked why he was being given this ticket he was told "Well if you perfer, I can give you a ticket for rekless driving instead
Is this a just ticket. ??How can someone be given a ticket on hear say??
The officer did not even witness anything, and why bully my son when he asked why he way being given the ticket.
If this was an older pereson and not a youth, would they have been given a ticket, or whold thet have been told "just be careful driving home"..
Any advise
Is this a valid offence?
Last edited by leichler1 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The officer has to have reasonable grounds to lay the charge. Reasonable grounds can be formed by his own observations or by receiving credible and specific information form a third party (a witness) which lays out the elements of the offence. For a charge to proceed in this manner, the officer would have had to have spoken to the witness before stopping the vehicle and obtained a statement, or at least enough information to form reasonable grounds - a formal statement could come later. That witness will then have to attend court to present the evidence for the charge. They will have to be able to set out all the elements of the offence and be able to identify your son as the driver. It is not sufficient to say that they observed a vehicle committing an offence and then after that a police officer stopped the vehicle and identified your son as the driver. That is not sufficient to prove that your son was the driver at the time of the alleged offence. Based on what you have described, I find it highly unlikely that the crown will be able to get a conviction if this goes to court. You might want to consider fighting this yourself or hiring a professional if you do not have the knowledge to do it yourself.
The officer has to have reasonable grounds to lay the charge. Reasonable grounds can be formed by his own observations or by receiving credible and specific information form a third party (a witness) which lays out the elements of the offence.
For a charge to proceed in this manner, the officer would have had to have spoken to the witness before stopping the vehicle and obtained a statement, or at least enough information to form reasonable grounds - a formal statement could come later.
That witness will then have to attend court to present the evidence for the charge. They will have to be able to set out all the elements of the offence and be able to identify your son as the driver. It is not sufficient to say that they observed a vehicle committing an offence and then after that a police officer stopped the vehicle and identified your son as the driver. That is not sufficient to prove that your son was the driver at the time of the alleged offence.
Based on what you have described, I find it highly unlikely that the crown will be able to get a conviction if this goes to court. You might want to consider fighting this yourself or hiring a professional if you do not have the knowledge to do it yourself.
Thanks for the information, He will fight this one. It just doesn't seem right that without actually seeing what did or did not happen a ticket can be issued.
Thanks for the information, He will fight this one.
It just doesn't seem right that without actually seeing what did or did not happen a ticket can be issued.
I will be going to court with my son who was charged with a hwy violation. I would like to know when In court, what are the limitations of what I can ask of the officer and the crowns witness. And can I represent my son or help represent him,by asking questions. Also the ticket was issued by the opp whom did not witness the violation, but was notified by another driver(witness). The witness has given a witness statement to the crown, which I have asked for disclosure of. Can I ask for a copy of the call made to the operator or 911, as I feel this evidence would benefit my sons defense. I feel that the witness statement being written in front of the prosecutor will be biased, as we have already had a first Attendance, and I can see where he will be going with this. Thanks
I will be going to court with my son who was charged with a hwy violation.
I would like to know when In court, what are the limitations of what I can ask of the officer and the crowns witness.
And can I represent my son or help represent him,by asking questions.
Also the ticket was issued by the opp whom did not witness the violation, but was notified by another driver(witness).
The witness has given a witness statement to the crown, which I have asked for disclosure of.
Can I ask for a copy of the call made to the operator or 911, as I feel this evidence would benefit my sons defense.
I feel that the witness statement being written in front of the prosecutor will be biased, as we have already had a first Attendance, and I can see where he will be going with this.
I have 10 Days until court, and have not yet received my requested for disclosure. I received a disclosure with officers notes prior to my first Attendance with the prosecutor. After The First Attendance, and no resolution with the Prosecutor, he said that they had a witness that would be called in to make a "Witness Statement" for them, and I would then receive a Trial date. I received My trial date last month, and Called, Faxed, and E-mailed the request for the disclosure. When I made the request I did not specify for what,( weather it was for the officers notes or a copy of the Witness statement).The paper with the request says it's for both. Do I have to specify? Nothing has been received yet 10 days to go. Should I call the Prosecutor office and ask for it or not. Would I be beneficial to go to my court date and try to get off the charges biased on the disclosure not been given to me? What is the time allowance that they have to give me to receive it. 1 week, 1 day? Maybe The office wont show up either, If so can I get the ticket withdrawn or will they just set a new trial date? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
I have 10 Days until court, and have not yet received my requested for disclosure.
I received a disclosure with officers notes prior to my first Attendance with the prosecutor.
After The First Attendance, and no resolution with the Prosecutor, he said that they had a witness that would be called in to make a "Witness Statement" for them, and I would then receive a Trial date.
I received My trial date last month, and Called, Faxed, and E-mailed the request for the disclosure. When I made the request I did not specify for what,( weather it was for the officers notes or a copy of the Witness statement).The paper with the request says it's for both. Do I have to specify?
Nothing has been received yet 10 days to go.
Should I call the Prosecutor office and ask for it or not.
Would I be beneficial to go to my court date and try to get off the charges biased on the disclosure not been given to me? What is the time allowance that they have to give me to receive it. 1 week, 1 day?
Maybe The office wont show up either, If so can I get the ticket withdrawn or will they just set a new trial date?
In this case you should get the officer's notes and a copy of the witness statement. If you do not have disclosure on the day of trial, bring it to the JP's attention. You could ask for the charge to be dismissed, although this technically is not the proper procedure to follow. The JP may be sympathetic and stay the charge, but more than likely he will just order the Prosecutor to produce full disclosure and set another trial date. If the officer fails to appear, it is unlikely that the witness could completely identify the driver (your son), so they might withdraw the charge. As for calling the Prosecutor's office, I'd just wait until the day of trial.
In this case you should get the officer's notes and a copy of the witness statement. If you do not have disclosure on the day of trial, bring it to the JP's attention. You could ask for the charge to be dismissed, although this technically is not the proper procedure to follow. The JP may be sympathetic and stay the charge, but more than likely he will just order the Prosecutor to produce full disclosure and set another trial date. If the officer fails to appear, it is unlikely that the witness could completely identify the driver (your son), so they might withdraw the charge. As for calling the Prosecutor's office, I'd just wait until the day of trial.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
I sent an other e-mail request for disclousure requesting the witness statment last weekend.. Today I and received a reply my e-mail from the Prosecutor clerk, saying that disclousure was sent to me in October. Also left a message on my answering machine. What was sent to me in October was the officers notes.And that was prior to my first attendance. During the The First Attendance, and no resolution with the Prosecutor, the Prosecutor said that they had a witness that would be called in to make a "Witness Statement" for them, and I would then receive a Trial date.. Does he need a witness statment to try this case, or is the officers testamony enough to convict my son. And shouldn't he have sent me a copy, or can the witness just attend the trial and testify for him. (maybe they made a mistake and forgot to get the statment.) Who takes the witness statment the Prosecutor or the Officer. Should I not reply, to the clerk and just go to trial? Can My son get a STAY. if there is no witness statment,And the witness just show up. What sould I do.. Thanks in advance.
I sent an other e-mail request for disclousure requesting the witness statment last weekend..
Today I and received a reply my e-mail from the Prosecutor clerk, saying that disclousure was sent to me in October. Also left a message on my answering machine.
What was sent to me in October was the officers notes.And that was prior to my first attendance.
During the The First Attendance, and no resolution with the Prosecutor, the Prosecutor said that they had a witness that would be called in to make a "Witness Statement" for them, and I would then receive a Trial date..
Does he need a witness statment to try this case, or is the officers testamony enough to convict my son.
And shouldn't he have sent me a copy, or can the witness just attend the trial and testify for him. (maybe they made a mistake and forgot to get the statment.)
Who takes the witness statment the Prosecutor or the Officer.
Should I not reply, to the clerk and just go to trial?
Can My son get a STAY. if there is no witness statment,And the witness just show up.
If the witness is the one who is going to supply the evidence proving identity, then he needs to attend court to give that evidence. The officer can not relay it, that's hearsay. If ANY party is going to be giving evidence at a trial there needs to be a disclosed witness statement in disclosure.
If the witness is the one who is going to supply the evidence proving identity, then he needs to attend court to give that evidence. The officer can not relay it, that's hearsay. If ANY party is going to be giving evidence at a trial there needs to be a disclosed witness statement in disclosure.
Thank you. I will just go to the set trial date and see who shows up. If officer doesn't show, or if the witness shows and I don't get a witness statment I will ask for the ticket to be thrown out.
Thank you.
I will just go to the set trial date and see who shows up.
If officer doesn't show, or if the witness shows and I don't get a witness statment I will ask for the ticket to be thrown out.
Just going through all the possible seniorios for next weeks trial date. Can I motion for a STAY be asked during the beginning if a trial or does this have to be done through papper work before the trial date. What I mean is if the witness did not give a statement, and the officer does not have an evidence except her own notes and memory and if the witness does not show, but the prosecutor wants to still try this case Can I motion a STAY.Or do I ask for the charges to be withdrawn? I know that this is a lot but I don't know what to really expect. So I want to be ready.
Just going through all the possible seniorios for next weeks trial date.
Can I motion for a STAY be asked during the beginning if a trial or does this have to be done through papper work before the trial date.
What I mean is if the witness did not give a statement,
and the officer does not have an evidence except her own notes and memory
and if the witness does not show,
but the prosecutor wants to still try this case
Can I motion a STAY.Or do I ask for the charges to be withdrawn?
I know that this is a lot but I don't know what to really expect.
About 15 yrs ago I was involved in a road rage incident. At the time the other driver had a cell phone and I did not, so he called OPP and filed a complaint, even though he started the entire chain of events, which I won't get into. He followed me to my workplace and still on the phone reported my location and then left. Few minutes later an officer was at the door and after he spoke to me and figured out the exact truth, he decided to let me off with a warning and a piece of advise, here is what he said: "Next time, just let it go and don't get involved and call it in as soon as you get here, the one who files the complaint, he is considered to be innocent and and since you did not, you are guilty, his job is not to decide if a ticket is just or not, that would be the job of the judge." Good luck..
About 15 yrs ago I was involved in a road rage incident.
At the time the other driver had a cell phone and I did not, so he called OPP and filed a complaint, even though he started the entire chain of events, which I won't get into.
He followed me to my workplace and still on the phone reported my location and then left. Few minutes later an officer was at the door and after he spoke to me and figured out the exact truth, he decided to let me off with a warning and a piece of advise, here is what he said:
"Next time, just let it go and don't get involved and call it in as soon as you get here, the one who files the complaint, he is considered to be innocent and and since you did not, you are guilty, his job is not to decide if a ticket is just or not, that would be the job of the judge."
Ask that the witness statement be produced so that you can prepare for trial. Argue that without it, you cannot adequately be prepared. It was part of the disclosure request, you were told you would get it, and you have not. Tell the JP you cannot proceed to trial without it, and unless you have it, it would be a violation of your son's rights under section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That should produce the witness statement. Without the witness, they have no case. If they try to proceed without the witness, object to the officer's testimony on the basis of it being hearsay.
Ask that the witness statement be produced so that you can prepare for trial. Argue that without it, you cannot adequately be prepared. It was part of the disclosure request, you were told you would get it, and you have not. Tell the JP you cannot proceed to trial without it, and unless you have it, it would be a violation of your son's rights under section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That should produce the witness statement. Without the witness, they have no case. If they try to proceed without the witness, object to the officer's testimony on the basis of it being hearsay.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Good to hear the charges were withdrawn! Witness never gave a statement to the police!? Are you serious?? The Prosecutor should've dropped the charge before it went to trial, in my opinion.
Good to hear the charges were withdrawn!
Witness never gave a statement to the police!? Are you serious?? The Prosecutor should've dropped the charge before it went to trial, in my opinion.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
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