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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Your rights when the five O pull you over
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:55 am 
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I got this kid next door-hes a good kid, goes to college for auto tech, and works a full time job as well. The kid has spent ALLL summmer working 15 hr days 6 days a week. Last week who goes out and buys a Chevelle SS off some old man who sells it to him at a good price because the old guy liked the kid and knows he likes working on cars.
Only thing is when he comes in at 1 you hear him coming up the street-sounds like a real muscle car :lol:

anyway, two nights in a row he gets pulled over. Last nite, he was over at Kennedy Commons showin off his car in the parking lot having cofee with his buddies.
On his way home, he gets stopped near Scarborough Town Centre.
They ask him if he has drugs or alchohol in the car and he says no.
They then check his paper work-its all good and come back and ask to search the car.
he tells them to go ahead. all said and done, he had tool bags and other car stuff in the trunk, they left it on the road and said he could go.
I told himnext time-SAY NO


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:01 am 
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how do you appropriately tell a cop he aint gonna be searching your vehicle? First off, I dont trust cops in Scarborough and really, hes opening the door for them to plant something.
How does this kid excersise his rights without getting his face smashed into the hood of a cruiser?
becuse once he says no, then they think hes hiding something, then there going to do it anyway-correct?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:30 pm 
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He could ask them for the reason he being stopped, satisfy them on that could (i.e. provide docs, etc), then if they ask him about searching the vehicle he could ask them if he's still being detained, since it seems the reason he was stopped has been investigated and satisfied.

If he's not being detained then he's free to go. If he is being detained after the traffic stop is completed then his section 10 rights are being violated and if they search him his section 8 rights are being violated. He doesn't have to tell them all this, but if he audio records it he has a pretty good basis for making a complaint or dealing with any charges.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:01 pm 
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Off_Camber wrote:
how do you appropriately tell a cop he aint gonna be searching your vehicle? First off, I dont trust cops in Scarborough and really, hes opening the door for them to plant something.
How does this kid excersise his rights without getting his face smashed into the hood of a cruiser?
becuse once he says no, then they think hes hiding something, then there going to do it anyway-correct?


He asks for a lawyer.
Or to speak to one.

If they touch him after that start howling as lowd as possible.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:02 pm 
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There are laws that we must follow when driving. Most of us know about them. If we fail to follow the law and a police officer observes this we will be in trouble. Thing is at this time there are laws that Police officers must follow too when dealing with us. Unfortunately most people have no idea the laws as far as what the police can and can not do. A police officer can not search your car without a warrent unless he sees something illegal out in the open. He can ask to search, and usually people dont know their rights and feel pressured into waiving their rights in this situation. You can refuse. You never have to give up your charter rights. If you refuse and the police search anyways you stand on better ground in court when your lawyer starts filing motions in your behalf. If you allow police to search and they find something, you're screwed because that search was legal.

Most of us here are Honest citizens though (i would like to believe) and you may think "if you have nothing to hide then it shouldn't be a problem". but I think " if i've done nothing wrong why am I allowing someone to hassle me like a criminal?"


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:32 pm 
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This province is getting scary insane. Where did these cops get the idea that they should search an innocent citizens' automobile? The freaking nerve! Some people are watching too much Cops on television.; they simply went fishing which is just plain wrong.

I would like to think that I would tell them to get stuffed when they politely ask "mind if we completely take away your civil right not to be detained by this agent of the crown?" But I'm probably too much a coward. I know I would be livid and appreciate law enforcement incrementally less every time. Way to build a rapport with the community.


Last edited by hk111 on Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:11 am 
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hk111 wrote:
This province is getting scary insane. Where do cops get the idea that they should search innocent citizens' automobiles? The freaking nerve! .


Also the nerve is painting all police with the same brush. As like any profession everywhere there are those that taint the 99.9% that do the job properly. I have never searched without a lawful reason, there are so many "ACTS" that each have their own variables for search authority.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:18 am 
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First to hk111: <I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but...> Be careful with the words you choose. You are coming across like a ne'er do well. The police have to follow the laws that govern their behaviour just like you have to follow laws that govern your behaviour. There are cops on this forum who spend their time posting valuable information free of charge and you don't want to come across like jerk to them.

Second, to hwybear: Right on - as always. I am not a cop, so I don't speak from personal experience, but my father was, and that was word-for-word what he used to say. I appreciate everything you have done to help us all out. I always look for your posts - and Simon's too! lol


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:39 pm 
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hk111 wrote:
This province is getting scary insane.


No, it's not. Try, for example, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Burma, etc. THOSE are scary-insane. I do have issues with lots of things that the government has done, but, on a relative scale, it's not that bad.

As for the original post, if the kid does not want to be searched, he does not have to voluntarily submit to a search. If the officer has reasonable grounds, he can still search the vehicle, but it can't be just based upon "I don't like that guy."

If he continues to get stopped and searched, put together a letter to the Toronto Police, to the Superintendent in charge of whatever division is stopping him (probably 41 Division), outlining the problems. This has worked in the past quite effectively.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:28 pm 
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The magic here is how the officer phrases the question, "May
I search your car?", you have the right to say no.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:08 pm 
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fourmat wrote:
First to hk111: <I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but...> Be careful with the words you choose. You are coming across like a ne'er do well. The police have to follow the laws that govern their behaviour just like you have to follow laws that govern your behaviour. There are cops on this forum who spend their time posting valuable information free of charge and you don't want to come across like jerk to them.

...lol


A ne'er do well? Merely because I assert that a right should hold in Ontario that has been extant since Magna Carta? That doesn't make me a ne'er do well; it makes me a citizen.

I'm pretty sure that most of the peace officers who read this forum are big people who won't lose a lot of sleep and have dealt with bigger jerks than you have painted me to be. Nonetheless, I get hwybear's point and have modified the second sentence of the original post. I will say, I've seen other folks on the forum generalize. (What is an "ACTS?")


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Reflections wrote:
The magic here is how the officer phrases the question, "May
I search your car?", you have the right to say no.


IMO, the only acceptable way to phrase this is: "May I search your car? You have the right to say no and, if you do, there will be no consequences."

Many of us more seasoned, 50-something, people know that we have the right to say no. But "the kid next door" in the original post is just a college kid. Put yourself in his shoes: he sees a guy with a powerful badge and, in all likelyhood, a partner on scene with an equally powerful badge. It's probably dark out (the poster mentions that it's night time when the search happens.) This kid likely has little knowledge of his rights or of what is best for himself. He's been stopped twice in a row and in neither case was there enough evidence to warrant any charge. (Even the most profound peace officer supporters in this forum will admit that there is something unsettling about this. And, just to set the record straight, I like most of the cops I've ever dealt with.) It's not at all clear that, under the circumstances that I've sketched, simply politely asking "May I search your car?" is sufficient to ensure that "the kid's" rights are fully respected. There is a certain coercive power that exists simply because the person asking the question has a dark uniform and a badge. And for a young person, that power could cloud his judgment.

Anyway, what I object to in your post is the fact that you did not include the "you have the right to say no" in the phrase you put in the the officer's mouth.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:27 pm 
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hk111 wrote:
What is an "ACTS?")


Acts = various laws that have search and arrest authorities
(ie: Highway traffic Act, Liquor Licence Act, Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, etc..)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:39 pm 
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My job is not to teach the kid his rights.

If I ask to search and he consents I am doing just that.

I know my rights and when I can search. I have a job to do and will do it.

Besides if anything is found and he is charged the courts will most likely toss the search anyways.

ops


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:39 am 
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Quote:
I know my rights and when I can search. I have a job to do and will do it.



Still comes back to what are the average joe's rights.. I know 99.9% of officers are just doing the job they have to do and following hunches are part of that. But if an 18 yr old kid, possibly nervous, is pulled over he may or may not know how these situations will unfold.

My view of an officer is of respect unless given a reason to think otherwise, and that respect usually means co-operation. That doesn't mean that I'm going to consent to a search "just cause" though.

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