Need Advice on Charter Rights - Should I file for a stay?

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Bamelin
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Need Advice on Charter Rights - Should I file for a stay?

Unread post by Bamelin on

Back in May 2009 I got a ticket (disobey sign) which carries a $110 fine and 2 demerit points.

My court date was scheduled for March 2010 10 months after getting the ticket. I decided to fight the case using bilingual defence. Upon appearing in court they settled all the plea bargains first and there was no time left to hear my case so judge pushed it back to September 2010.

This will make it 16 months from when I got the original ticket.

Do I have cause to file for a stay based on my charter rights on length of delay? This will be my third time (including going to the court to apply for a trial date) having to drive from Milton (almost a 45 min drive each way) to court.

I had heard that the outermost limit is 18 months, wondering if at 16 months I have a case?
Last edited by Bamelin on Wed May 05, 2010 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Reflections
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Unread post by Reflections on

Sure you do. Goto http://www.ticketcombat.com to find out more. You will need file form 4F. Should be a slam dunk, 16 months for a disobey sign.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


Bamelin
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Unread post by Bamelin on

Reflections wrote:Sure you do. Goto http://www.ticketcombat.com to find out more. You will need file form 4F. Should be a slam dunk, 16 months for a disobey sign.
Ticketcombat was the site that talked about it being 18 months:
Intake and Institutional Delay

The 18 months is broken into two components. First a maximum of eight to ten months for intake, that is, the inherent time required to prepare a case for trial.

Second, courts then give an additional six to eight month allowance for institutional delay. Institutional delay is when both parties are ready for trial but the system cannot accommodate them.

Note that either component can be unusually long while the other could be short. The court will look at whether, together, the delay was longer than 18 months. For example, intake could take 14 months, but the institutional delay could be only three months. Seventeen months is below the 18 month maximum. This amount of time could be considered reasonable
Wasn't sure if I had a case or not but I'll definitely file a stay regardless.


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Unread post by Reflections on

Wasn't sure if I had a case or not but I'll definitely file a stay regardless.
Worst that can happen is they say no.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


Bamelin
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Unread post by Bamelin on

Reflections wrote:
Wasn't sure if I had a case or not but I'll definitely file a stay regardless.
Worst that can happen is they say no.
Well the thing is I'm toying with the idea of doing a plea bargain because I have a feeling bilingual defence isn't going to work. Can I try to do the stay and then ask to speak to the prosecution privately (to arrange a plea bargain), if they turn down my request for a stay?


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Unread post by mathers on

Quite likely the best plea bargain you will get is reduction in the fine to half; your insurance and demerits still get dinged. Not at all worth it, imo. Fight the charge. Read the regulations. Use multiple arguements. Request disclosure if you haven't already. If you prepare a good 4F application, your stay should be granted without a trial. There is oodles of caselaw where far more serious charges are stayed after far shorter delays. Seeing as you had already had 2 appearances and the prosecutor knew this would be a 3rd and a sixteen month delay, it's quite surprising they didn't just withdraw the charge (assuming the 1st delay was also pre-emptory on the crown).


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Unread post by Bamelin on

mathers wrote:Quite likely the best plea bargain you will get is reduction in the fine to half; your insurance and demerits still get dinged. Not at all worth it, imo. Fight the charge. Read the regulations. Use multiple arguements. Request disclosure if you haven't already. If you prepare a good 4F application, your stay should be granted without a trial. There is oodles of caselaw where far more serious charges are stayed after far shorter delays. Seeing as you had already had 2 appearances and the prosecutor knew this would be a 3rd and a sixteen month delay, it's quite surprising they didn't just withdraw the charge (assuming the 1st delay was also pre-emptory on the crown).
This will actually be my 2nd appearance coming up.

The first time I went to courthouse was to indicate I wanted a trial, the second time was supposed to be the actual trial with me on the docket, and now the third time will be this pushed back trial date.

I haven't requested disclosure yet but I'm going to ...

My biggest issue is the expense of all this ... if I count gas I've probaly already spent half the cost of the ticket just going to court. Heck probaly more if you count the day off I had to take to appear the first time (and will have to take off to appear the 2nd time).

I'm frustrated I didn't get my trial in March ... I was ready to go, had all my documents ready and then they said there was no time for a trial. Of course there's not going to be time when you cram 30 people into a 90 minute time slot. Yet the plea bargainers get to go home early while I wait until the very end only to be told no time left to hear my case. Not fair at all. One other guy got his trial and got crushed. They looked surprised that there were TWO people asking for trials. What a surprise to see people exercising their rights I guess.

The judges exact words when I showed her the R vs Myers argument (bilingual defence) "No way we are deciding this today, this could have big ramifications" (it was also almost 4:30)

Also judge and prosecution stated that since I didn't have copies of the appeal case (I told them I would be happy to give them my copy to look at), and because the prosecution didn't know I would be making a case based on the HWT prosecution needs time to look at the regulations I'll be quoting and prepare. I didn't know I'm supposed to let them know what my defence is going to be !!

Judge stated she didn't think I would win on bilingual defence but my right to try. She was at first going to put the trial two weeks later and then I stated I'd already taken time off work so she said we'll do it in September. I told her I was aware I had a right to a speedy trial without delay so I'd rather do it two weeks from now to get it over with. Then she said "No that would cause you undue hardship with work" and I said "no I'd rather have the trial sooner rather than later as I have a right to a speedy trial" but she insisted on September.

They seemed upset (maybe annoyed?) they were going to have to clear an entire docket time to hear my case.

After I got home I found out that the R vs Myers case was appealed and she plead guilty before it went to trial so who knows what will happen with bili8ngual defence now. I think my only hope is a stay ... and really a 16 month wait for a trial is ridiculous in my opinion.

I've done everything I'm supposed to do, I'm really annoyed I didn't get my day in court, wasting my time.
Last edited by Bamelin on Wed May 05, 2010 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Unread post by Bamelin on

Oh and one other thing, when they mailed me my original trial date they sent the letter to the wrong address!!! My neighbor happened to know me and be home and passed it on to me.

I may not have even known when my trial date was going to be!


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Unread post by Reflections on

Oh and one other thing, when they mailed me my original trial date they sent the letter to the wrong address!!! My neighbor happened to know me and be home and passed it on to me.
No legal impact, but funny none the less. File the stay, 15 days before you trial.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


ManlyMinute
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Unread post by ManlyMinute on

I had a case in Barrie that took only 10 months coming into the light and I successfully agrued an 11b. Naturally I think Barrie isn't as backed up as Toronto so that may have helped but if I were fighting a case like yours I'd jump all over that 11b arguement.






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