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Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:24 am 
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Hi, I'm going to be going for my full G, and I'm a bit confused on where you are suppose to wait at an intersection to make a left turn. I took drivers ed, and my instructor always had me pull into the intersection when the light is green, then wait for the way to clear. My parents, who have had their licenses for almost 30 years tell me that you are suppose to wait behind the line and wait for the way to clear. My friend who just finished drivers ed told me his parents told him the same thing, but his driving instructor told him it is wrong to wait behind the white line as it holds up the flow of traffic. Personally I agree with him as I think at a busy intersection you will never be able to make your left turn if you wait behind the line. We both agree its better to pull into the intersection with caution and wait for the way to clear or for the light to change to amber/red then go as long as no one is going through the light and their is no pedestrians.

I'm just wondering if you are suppose to wait behind the line or pull into the intersection. My friend told me that his instructor said it's illegal to wait behind the line, but I see some people do it, and I see others pull into the intersection and wait. I want to know the proper way for Ontario so that I don't fail my test if your suppose to wait behind the line.


Thanks :)

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:23 am 
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Your driving instructor is correct.

Section 144 (12) of the HTA allows you to enter on a green (well, no kidding). Once you've pulled in to the intersection, as you know, you just wait for traffic to clear and then turn when safely able. Now, here's where some confusion comes up. Section 145 allows by-laws to be passed prohibiting blocking an intersection:

Quote:
Blocking intersection - 145.
(1) The council of a municipality may by by-law prohibit a driver or street car operator approaching, at an intersection, a traffic control signal showing a circular green or green arrow indication from entering the intersection unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (1).

Idem

(2) A by-law passed under subsection (1) does not apply to a driver or street car operator who enters an intersection for the purpose of turning to the right or left into an intersecting highway and signals his or her intention to make the turn prior to entering the intersection.


BUT... it's all written implying that they expect you to enter the intersection on green if you want to turn right or left, and wait for the way to clear. This helps people move through busy intersections, like you suggested. Section (2) is specifically written to exempt drivers who are turning, so that they can be in the intersection after the light turns red - if they entered on a green. (Within reason, of course.) Your friend's instructor is also right, it is illegal to stay behind the line. It's an offence called "failing to proceed as directed." The only exception would be if there was some safety reason to stay clear of the intersection (e.g. approaching emergency vehicle, red light runner, etc).

Omega_Gin wrote:
My parents, who have had their licenses for almost 30 years tell me that you are suppose to wait behind the line and wait for the way to clear. My friend who just finished drivers ed told me his parents told him the same thing


Laws aside, I agree with your personal thoughts, using a common-sense approach. In Toronto, if you insist on staying behind the line, you might be stranded there for several hours "waiting for the way to clear." But, if you want the "real answer": My sister failed her first driving test because she stayed behind the line waiting to turn left. The examiner docked her marks for "impeding traffic" and the offence of "failing to proceed as directed."

Personally, I find it frustrating when people wait behind the line, but many Torontonians have a unique (read: insanely unsafe) way of dealing with this. It's called the "outside swoop": Pass the driver on the right and turn left in front of them. :shock:

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:41 am 
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Agree with RI.

Absolutely you can move forward past the stop line when the light is green, to wait for the opportunity to turn when safe to do so.

Then it goes into common sense (not law) that only one vehicle be forward waiting to turn. Once the vehicle successfully turns the next vehicle moves past the line and waits etc... This prevents intersection blockages when the light turns red.

Courtesy of our resident moderator RI :wink: we will bring you "How to block an Intersection"



Courtesy of our resident moderator RI :wink: we will bring you "How not to turn"


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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Radar Identified wrote:
Your driving instructor is correct.

Section 144 (12) of the HTA allows you to enter on a green (well, no kidding). Once you've pulled in to the intersection, as you know, you just wait for traffic to clear and then turn when safely able. Now, here's where some confusion comes up. Section 145 allows by-laws to be passed prohibiting blocking an intersection:

Quote:
Blocking intersection - 145.
(1) The council of a municipality may by by-law prohibit a driver or street car operator approaching, at an intersection, a traffic control signal showing a circular green or green arrow indication from entering the intersection unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (1).

Idem

(2) A by-law passed under subsection (1) does not apply to a driver or street car operator who enters an intersection for the purpose of turning to the right or left into an intersecting highway and signals his or her intention to make the turn prior to entering the intersection.


BUT... it's all written implying that they expect you to enter the intersection on green if you want to turn right or left, and wait for the way to clear. This helps people move through busy intersections, like you suggested. Section (2) is specifically written to exempt drivers who are turning, so that they can be in the intersection after the light turns red - if they entered on a green. (Within reason, of course.) Your friend's instructor is also right, it is illegal to stay behind the line. It's an offence called "failing to proceed as directed." The only exception would be if there was some safety reason to stay clear of the intersection (e.g. approaching emergency vehicle, red light runner, etc).

Omega_Gin wrote:
My parents, who have had their licenses for almost 30 years tell me that you are suppose to wait behind the line and wait for the way to clear. My friend who just finished drivers ed told me his parents told him the same thing


Laws aside, I agree with your personal thoughts, using a common-sense approach. In Toronto, if you insist on staying behind the line, you might be stranded there for several hours "waiting for the way to clear." But, if you want the "real answer": My sister failed her first driving test because she stayed behind the line waiting to turn left. The examiner docked her marks for "impeding traffic" and the offence of "failing to proceed as directed."

Personally, I find it frustrating when people wait behind the line, but many Torontonians have a unique (read: insanely unsafe) way of dealing with this. It's called the "outside swoop": Pass the driver on the right and turn left in front of them. :shock:


Thanks for the help :P I figured that you would fail for waiting behind the line, I had this one time where the person in front of me did that and I had to wait through 5 green lights.

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:29 am 
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hwybear wrote:
Courtesy of our resident moderator RI we will bring you "How to block an Intersection"


hwybear wrote:
Courtesy of our resident moderator RI we will bring you "How not to turn"


Toronto traffic = free entertainment. Yesterday the DVP was like the Autofragginbahn.

Omega_Gin wrote:
I had this one time where the person in front of me did that and I had to wait through 5 green lights.


5 green lights? :shock: If I was stuck behind him, I'd likely wear the horn out.

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:17 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
Agree with RI.

Absolutely you can move forward past the stop line when the light is green, to wait for the opportunity to turn when safe to do so.

Then it goes into common sense (not law) that only one vehicle be forward waiting to turn. Once the vehicle successfully turns the next vehicle moves past the line and waits etc... This prevents intersection blockages when the light turns red.


I always assumed it was law that only car could be in the intersection at a time? Regardless, if it is a big enough intersection, and I can fully pull over the white line into the intersection I will (and will of course extend other drivers the courtesy of moving forward if I am lead car as well, so more people can make the turn).

Quote:

Courtesy of our resident moderator RI :wink: we will bring you "How not to turn"



Heh, if I had to guess, that looks like Sloane Ave., and judging by the traffic that was last year when they were doing construction on Vic Park between Ellesmere and Lawrence.

With regards to the OP, I'd like add that when making said left turns, do so in a timely fashion.I don't mean go ripping around the corner tires squealing, but I've seen people sit in the intersection until the light is red, then very slowly make the turn. Meanwhile, you're in the way of the the other two lanes (especially if they have advance green), not to mention the car (or two) behind you trying to make it through the light as well.

My two cents.


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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:36 pm 
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manwithaplan wrote:
Heh, if I had to guess, that looks like Sloane Ave., and judging by the traffic that was last year when they were doing construction on Vic Park between Ellesmere and Lawrence.


Sloane it is. :)

However, that was not during the Ellesmere/Lawrence construction. It was just normal rush hour volume. When they were doing the construction... OH... MY... GOD. :shock: I'd try to deke down Sloane ASAP and cut through to Lawrence because it could take, literally, 20+ minutes to go from Sloane to Lawrence, a distance of about 400 metres.

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:09 pm 
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You also have to watch for accident "staggers".
Some of these idiots will turn then stop dead just as they pass the markings.

I almost hit 2 off them last week.

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:00 pm 
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viper1 wrote:
You also have to watch for accident "staggers".
Some of these idiots will turn then stop dead just as they pass the markings.

I almost hit 2 off them last week.

Cheers
Viper1


What do you mean exactly? When people make the turn then stop to make another quick left/right after the lights?

Radar Identified wrote:
Sloane it is. :)

However, that was not during the Ellesmere/Lawrence construction. It was just normal rush hour volume. When they were doing the construction... OH... MY... GOD. :shock: I'd try to deke down Sloane ASAP and cut through to Lawrence because it could take, literally, 20+ minutes to go from Sloane to Lawrence, a distance of about 400 metres.


No kidding... I travel to and from work on Vic Park everyday, I guess I never really pay enough attention to the northbound traffic when I'm heading home, heh. The worst part of the construction was that they were changing which lanes were closed every other day. And then for a few days there they had only one traffic light for NB Vic Park @ Lawrence, and the wind (or somebody) blew it off to the side, so you couldn't even see what color the lights were (or if the advance green was up). People were driving all over the place, it was ridiculous. (Sorry for the rant, but that bout of construction still boils my blood... starting with the fact that they didn't post any warning of it happening before hand on VP that I saw. I did however see signs on pharmacy saying they were starting const. on VP :roll: ) /rant


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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:14 am 
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They turn as usual into their lane but stop just after the turn in the hope you will rear end them.

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:14 pm 
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manwithaplan wrote:
The worst part of the construction was that they were changing which lanes were closed every other day. And then for a few days there they had only one traffic light for NB Vic Park @ Lawrence, and the wind (or somebody) blew it off to the side, so you couldn't even see what color the lights were (or if the advance green was up). People were driving all over the place, it was ridiculous. (Sorry for the rant, but that bout of construction still boils my blood... starting with the fact that they didn't post any warning of it happening before hand on VP that I saw. I did however see signs on pharmacy saying they were starting const


They bottlenecked Vic Park by shutting off the left lane at Lawrence right where the left turning lane for westbound Lawrence started. So people who were trying to turn left got crunched into the right-most lane. The stupid thing was, all of the construction was north of Lawrence, so they could've just kept the left turning lane open and cut off the left through lane... but no.

What made it even worse was that it's Scarborough. People have no idea how to react to normal traffic situations, so something unusual just made it a total meltdown. The worst part (and there were quite a few candidates for this) was people driving into the left turning lane (when it was open) and trying to use it as a through lane or right turning lane, in spite of three BIG signs telling everyone to MERGE RIGHT. They even had simple diagrams, arrows, etc... but leave it up to Scarborough drivers to completely botch a very simple concept.

Then again... Scarborough drivers are completely incapable of making a turn without crossing over at least one lane of traffic, so trying to use the left turn lane as a right-turning lane fits right in. :roll:

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:01 pm 
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Radar Identified wrote:
They bottlenecked Vic Park by shutting off the left lane at Lawrence right where the left turning lane for westbound Lawrence started. So people who were trying to turn left got crunched into the right-most lane. The stupid thing was, all of the construction was north of Lawrence, so they could've just kept the left turning lane open and cut off the left through lane... but no.


What was even worse was when they had BOTH the left turn lane and left through lane blocked, so left turners had to squeeze back over, and if there was more than three or four cars trying to turn it held up traffic. I almost got out of my car and pounded a guy because of that - one morning on the way to work I was sitting there waiting for the light to change, and there was maybe 3-4 cars (including me) behind the merge sign/pylons (i.e. an extremely low amount of traffic).

So some guy in a SUV comes tearing up, and decides to try and cut in front of me (instead of pulling in behind the 3 cars behind me). I proceeded to move forward when the light changed, but the guy literally forced me up unto the sidewalk so he could squeeze through (and then proceed to pull back over to the left turn lane and wait there). :x Not being able to wait the extra 10 seconds almost killed him :evil:

Quote:
What made it even worse was that it's Scarborough. People have no idea how to react to normal traffic situations, so something unusual just made it a total meltdown. The worst part (and there were quite a few candidates for this) was people driving into the left turning lane (when it was open) and trying to use it as a through lane or right turning lane, in spite of three BIG signs telling everyone to MERGE RIGHT. They even had simple diagrams, arrows, etc... but leave it up to Scarborough drivers to completely botch a very simple concept.

Then again... Scarborough drivers are completely incapable of making a turn without crossing over at least one lane of traffic, so trying to use the left turn lane as a right-turning lane fits right in. :roll:


Scarborough isn't so bad. I drive a lot in Markham/Richmond hill for work, and it's worse. Kind of like Scarborough, but in slow motion. :D

viper1 wrote:
They turn as usual into their lane but stop just after the turn in the hope you will rear end them.

Cheers
Nadnic


Ah, gotcha. You confused me by staying 'stagger', which means something different :wink:

No doubt, there's plenty of people out there pulling insurance scams, they set you up for a rear-ender, then all of the sudden they have a back and neck problems, and sue you!


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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:52 pm 
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It was the spell correct that spelled it that way!!! I originally spelled it the other way.
Victoria park near there has more holes in it then eglinton near laird.

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:55 pm 
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manwithaplan wrote:
So some guy in a SUV comes tearing up, and decides to try and cut in front of me (instead of pulling in behind the 3 cars behind me).


BUMPER TAG!! :lol:

Okay not really...

Although if it does give you any consolation, I did see someone try that when the vehicle in the right lane was a dark Ford Crown Victoria with tinted windows. (GEE... I wonder who that is?) The moron got pulled over just after turning on to Lawrence. Otherwise, I tried to avoid that construction area at all costs.

manwithaplan wrote:
Scarborough isn't so bad. I drive a lot in Markham/Richmond hill for work, and it's worse. Kind of like Scarborough, but in slow motion.


I'd say they're about the same, except in Thornhill they drive like bats out of hell. As for slow... weekends on Lawrence or Eglinton between VP and Markham Road... aaaarrrggghhhh!!!! People distribute themselves between all lanes and drive at 45 km/h or less, ensuring no one can pass. The traffic jams are completely artificial because if people actually drove faster the road would clear up. Part of that's also due to the fact that they're lost, driving on the same roads they've been driving on for years... I think in Scarborough they get in their cars without knowing where they're going or why.

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Re: Where to wait to make a left turn at a intersection.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Radar Identified wrote:
manwithaplan wrote:
So some guy in a SUV comes tearing up, and decides to try and cut in front of me (instead of pulling in behind the 3 cars behind me).


BUMPER TAG!! :lol:

Okay not really...

Although if it does give you any consolation, I did see someone try that when the vehicle in the right lane was a dark Ford Crown Victoria with tinted windows. (GEE... I wonder who that is?) The moron got pulled over just after turning on to Lawrence. Otherwise, I tried to avoid that construction area at all costs.


That does make me feel better! :) I must say, I always do a double take when I see a Crown Vic, just to make sure. And if I'm in the GTA surrounding Toronto, gotta watch for those Impalas, Chargers (Peel) and Tahoes (especially those shifty lookin' beige ones with several antennae, hehe).

Radar Identified wrote:

I'd say they're about the same, except in Thornhill they drive like bats out of hell. As for slow... weekends on Lawrence or Eglinton between VP and Markham Road... aaaarrrggghhhh!!!! People distribute themselves between all lanes and drive at 45 km/h or less, ensuring no one can pass. The traffic jams are completely artificial because if people actually drove faster the road would clear up. Part of that's also due to the fact that they're lost, driving on the same roads they've been driving on for years... I think in Scarborough they get in their cars without knowing where they're going or why.


I've noticed that too, that big hill on Yonge between Steeles and the 407 cars love flying down there, and it's only a 50.... to me that screams 'radar trap'. I always think when that Range goes flying by "enjoy your ticket, buddy".

And to be honest, I try to avoid driving on main roads in scarborough. I use Comstock/Ashtonbee a lot (though you need a hummer to navigate the bumps on Astonbee), and if I have to go further east I take St Clair up to Kingston and swing around that way :wink:


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