A question came up at car show this weekend that I was not able to answer for a fellow classic car enthusiast. He owns a 1969 Camaro and a couple weeks ago he was pulled over by a police officer and ordered to attend a municipally owned bus depot about 1 km away. Once there his vehicle was inspected for about 40 minutes by representatives of the MTO and the e-brake was found to be deficient. They removed his plates and he had the car towed home and got it re-certified and new plates. So his question to me as a fellow gearhead, and former paralegal with some basic HTA experience, was the legality of the initial order to attend another location. We all know that the police or MTO have the authority to inspect a vehicle. But under what authority do the police have to order a motorist to move themselves or their vehicle anywhere other than safely off the road at a traffic stop? What options does the officer have if you refuse? 1. Place you under arrest for disobey lawful order. 2. Have your vehicle towed and impounded for inspection. 3. Have your vehicle towed to the location of the MTO inspectors. 4. Radio the MTO inspectors to come to the roadside and check the vehicle so thoroughly the plates are guaranteed to be removed (most likely).
A question came up at car show this weekend that I was not able to answer for a fellow classic car enthusiast. He owns a 1969 Camaro and a couple weeks ago he was pulled over by a police officer and ordered to attend a municipally owned bus depot about 1 km away. Once there his vehicle was inspected for about 40 minutes by representatives of the MTO and the e-brake was found to be deficient. They removed his plates and he had the car towed home and got it re-certified and new plates.
So his question to me as a fellow gearhead, and former paralegal with some basic HTA experience, was the legality of the initial order to attend another location.
We all know that the police or MTO have the authority to inspect a vehicle. But under what authority do the police have to order a motorist to move themselves or their vehicle anywhere other than safely off the road at a traffic stop? What options does the officer have if you refuse?
1. Place you under arrest for disobey lawful order.
2. Have your vehicle towed and impounded for inspection.
3. Have your vehicle towed to the location of the MTO inspectors.
4. Radio the MTO inspectors to come to the roadside and check the vehicle so thoroughly the plates are guaranteed to be removed (most likely).
Safety inspections are covered under section 82 of the Highway Traffic Act. It allows police to make a demand to the operator of a motor vehicle to submit it for a safety inspection at a different location. Failure to do so can result in a fine of up to $1,000 for a regular vehicle or $20,000 for a commercial motor vehicle. Failure to comply could also result in your plates being seized and your vehicle deemed unfit. Highlights are below:
Safety inspections are covered under section 82 of the Highway Traffic Act. It allows police to make a demand to the operator of a motor vehicle to submit it for a safety inspection at a different location. Failure to do so can result in a fine of up to $1,000 for a regular vehicle or $20,000 for a commercial motor vehicle. Failure to comply could also result in your plates being seized and your vehicle deemed unfit. Highlights are below:
Inspections, unsafe vehicles
82. (2) Every police officer and every officer appointed for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of this Act may require the driver of any motor vehicle or motor assisted bicycle to stop, move the vehicle to a safe location as directed by the police officer or officer and submit the vehicle, together with its equipment and any vehicle drawn by it, to the examinations and tests that the police officer or officer may consider expedient. 1999, c. 12, Sched. R, s. 14.
Offence
(9) Every person is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not more than $1,000 who,
(a) refuses or fails to comply with a requirement made under subsection (2), (3), (4), (5), (8) or (12); or
(11) Despite subsections (9) and (10), a person is not guilty of an offence for refusing or failing to comply with a requirement under subsection (3), (4) or (5) unless the police officer or officer appointed for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of this Act gave the person a written notice as required by subsection (6).
Thanks for the reply. I guess the question now is what constitutes "move the vehicle to a safe location" under the legislation. Is a motorist justified in arguing that where they pulled over is safe if for example it is adjacent to a nearby parking lot that they agree to move into for example? To what lengths do motorists have to go to satisfy this section?
Thanks for the reply. I guess the question now is what constitutes "move the vehicle to a safe location" under the legislation. Is a motorist justified in arguing that where they pulled over is safe if for example it is adjacent to a nearby parking lot that they agree to move into for example? To what lengths do motorists have to go to satisfy this section?
think the wording in 82(2) is very clear in..."move the vehicle to a safe location as directed by the police officer", anything other than directed would be disobey an officer. Sounds like the above is a target of unsafe vehicle day, where the safe location are set up well in advance with whatever parking lot that is going to be used for inspections, there are a multiple reasons to use a particular lot - surface condition (to roll the creepers to get under vehicles) - accessibility for multiple vehicles to enter - ability to set up a safety perimeter (often the whole parking lot) to prevent other vehicles from entering: have inspections in an arena parking lot in summer as opposed to a mall parking lot, too many vehicles/pedestrians all over - access to washroom facilities on premise - access to telephone for those to call tows etc..
think the wording in 82(2) is very clear in..."move the vehicle to a safe location as directed by the police officer", anything other than directed would be disobey an officer.
Sounds like the above is a target of unsafe vehicle day, where the safe location are set up well in advance with whatever parking lot that is going to be used for inspections, there are a multiple reasons to use a particular lot
- surface condition (to roll the creepers to get under vehicles)
- accessibility for multiple vehicles to enter
- ability to set up a safety perimeter (often the whole parking lot) to prevent other vehicles from entering: have inspections in an arena parking lot in summer as opposed to a mall parking lot, too many vehicles/pedestrians all over
- access to washroom facilities on premise
- access to telephone for those to call tows
etc..
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Agree, "as directed by police" is the key. I can see you might have an argument if you were stopped in Toronto but directed to North Bay for the testing since it's supposed to be expedient, but I've never heard of Courts finding fault with directions to attend local testing areas. If you read 82(3), you'll also see that you can be served written notice as the vehicle owner to submit your vehicle for testing and that sections makes no mention of location requirements.
Agree, "as directed by police" is the key. I can see you might have an argument if you were stopped in Toronto but directed to North Bay for the testing since it's supposed to be expedient, but I've never heard of Courts finding fault with directions to attend local testing areas. If you read 82(3), you'll also see that you can be served written notice as the vehicle owner to submit your vehicle for testing and that sections makes no mention of location requirements.
The officer MUST serve the driver with a notice form pursuant to s. 82(6) before the driver can be charged with failing/refusing to comply with any directions under s. 82 related to moving the vehicle or assisting in the examination. The approved form is the Vehicle Defect Report Notice.
The officer MUST serve the driver with a notice form pursuant to s. 82(6) before the driver can be charged with failing/refusing to comply with any directions under s. 82 related to moving the vehicle or assisting in the examination. The approved form is the Vehicle Defect Report Notice.
I also find sec 82. (8) interesting as you are required to assist in the examination of your vehicle. This section is in fact enforced as the motorists I have spoken to have reported they were ordered to actually do this for up to an hour. This ordering motorists to travel somewhere and basically detain them just seems bizarre in respect to sec. 9 of the Charter. There may be other examples but I cant think of any other situations where you are required by law to go with a police officer and assist in potentially incriminating yourself. "Requirement to assist (8) The driver of a vehicle submitted for examinations and tests as required under subsection (2), (3) or (4) and any other person in charge of the vehicle who is present shall, if directed by a police officer or officer appointed for the purposes of carrying out the provisions of this Act, assist with the examinations and tests of the vehicle and of its equipment. 1999, c. 12, Sched. R, s. 14."
I also find sec 82. (8) interesting as you are required to assist in the examination of your vehicle. This section is in fact enforced as the motorists I have spoken to have reported they were ordered to actually do this for up to an hour. This ordering motorists to travel somewhere and basically detain them just seems bizarre in respect to sec. 9 of the Charter. There may be other examples but I cant think of any other situations where you are required by law to go with a police officer and assist in potentially incriminating yourself.
"Requirement to assist (8) The driver of a vehicle submitted for examinations and tests as required under subsection (2), (3) or (4) and any other person in charge of the vehicle who is present shall, if directed by a police officer or officer appointed for the purposes of carrying out the provisions of this Act, assist with the examinations and tests of the vehicle and of its equipment. 1999, c. 12, Sched. R, s. 14."
Impaired driving comes to mind. While criminal, you're still required to attend a testing facility and provide samples of your breath.
peterboro wrote:
There may be other examples but I cant think of any other situations where you are required by law to go with a police officer and assist in potentially incriminating yourself.
Impaired driving comes to mind. While criminal, you're still required to attend a testing facility and provide samples of your breath.
It may well be considered a s. 9 violation, as the Charter is probably engaged at the time they are detained, but if so, it would be justified under s. 1 of the Charter.
It may well be considered a s. 9 violation, as the Charter is probably engaged at the time they are detained, but if so, it would be justified under s. 1 of the Charter.
So for arguments sake would this reasonable limit under sec. 1 of the Charter be justified in pulling over vehicles without RPG if they fit a profile for example ricers, antiques or classic cars? After all this seems to be standard operating procedure on these MTO and Ministry of the Enviroment fishing expiditions in a lot of cases at least around here (Peterborough).
Simon Borys wrote:
It may well be considered a s. 9 violation, as the Charter is probably engaged at the time they are detained, but if so, it would be justified under s. 1 of the Charter.
So for arguments sake would this reasonable limit under sec. 1 of the Charter be justified in pulling over vehicles without RPG if they fit a profile for example ricers, antiques or classic cars?
After all this seems to be standard operating procedure on these MTO and Ministry of the Enviroment fishing expiditions in a lot of cases at least around here (Peterborough).
R v Ladouceur (1990) Supreme Court decided that random stops are a violation of s. 9 but are a limit prescribed by law (what is now s. 216(1) of the HTA in Ontario) and are justified under s. 1. Selective stops of vehicles that are committing offences are even more easily justified because there is a specific reason to stop them. Selective stops of certain TYPES of vehicles, as you have suggested, does not necessarily render the stop an unjustified violation of s. 9 (see Brown v Durham Police Service Board (1998) Ontario Court of Appeal), though that may be the case if the reason for the stop is for some prohibited ground of profiling - i.e. race, gender, etc. But of course the onus is on the person claiming that is the reason they were stopped - not an easy thing to prove. One more thing I would note is that Brown specifically said that stopping of young or novice drivers is a proper selective style stop, so youth is not a prohibited ground for profiling in this context.
R v Ladouceur (1990) Supreme Court decided that random stops are a violation of s. 9 but are a limit prescribed by law (what is now s. 216(1) of the HTA in Ontario) and are justified under s. 1.
Selective stops of vehicles that are committing offences are even more easily justified because there is a specific reason to stop them.
Selective stops of certain TYPES of vehicles, as you have suggested, does not necessarily render the stop an unjustified violation of s. 9 (see Brown v Durham Police Service Board (1998) Ontario Court of Appeal), though that may be the case if the reason for the stop is for some prohibited ground of profiling - i.e. race, gender, etc. But of course the onus is on the person claiming that is the reason they were stopped - not an easy thing to prove.
One more thing I would note is that Brown specifically said that stopping of young or novice drivers is a proper selective style stop, so youth is not a prohibited ground for profiling in this context.
Negative on the driver part Simon. The notice in the approved form (as you have mentioned) must be served on the owner (if other than the driver) for reporting "after the fact". Driver at the time of the stop does not require a form notice. Notice only applies to subs 3, 4 and 5. Driver is subsection 2.
Simon Borys wrote:
The officer MUST serve the driver with a notice form pursuant to s. 82(6) before the driver can be charged with failing/refusing to comply with any directions under s. 82 related to moving the vehicle or assisting in the examination. The approved form is the Vehicle Defect Report Notice.
Negative on the driver part Simon. The notice in the approved form (as you have mentioned) must be served on the owner (if other than the driver) for reporting "after the fact". Driver at the time of the stop does not require a form notice. Notice only applies to subs 3, 4 and 5. Driver is subsection 2.
I got ticket for failing to stop at stop sign in Toronto. i heard that the police officer must see the stop line, if there is one, from where he was sitting. That is exactly my case, Is it a strong case? If so do i need a picture to show that there is a stop line and a picture to show that he could not see the stop line from where he was sitting?
I got a ticket, Disobey stop sign, sec 136.1.a on dec 6th
I made a left in an intersection and was pulled over by a police officer in an unmarked car who had been sitting down the road. A classic fishing hole situation. I was genuinely surprised when he stopped me and told me I went through a stop sign without even slowing down. I know to shut up and be polite and take the ticket. I…
Yesterday morning, I rear-ended someone. I was going the speed limit. The sun was directly in front of me and it blinded my windshield and my eyes. At the same time, the person in front of me stopped/slowed down (also due to the sun). I started to slow down but didn't stop and I hit them since I couldn't see anything. I was not driving too close initially. I…
I was driving in the county at night and hit a limousine stretched out side ways across the road. The limo had its lights on and had side lighting as well. The police officer charged me with careless driving because it was "fully lit up".
It took me to the next day to figure out what had happened - what I remember made no sense. What I had run across was a "false visual reference" illusion.
I was on hwy 37 trying to make my girlfriends ganadmas mass and I live an hour away and I had an hour to get there so I was going fast but not 50 over untill some idiot got on my tail soo close that I was to concentrated on him that I kept going faster untill I got pulled over at 147 on an 80 km hwy.
I alreaddy lost 3 points and this time was just the…
Hello, got stopped today for rolling a stop sign. Ticket says failure to stop, but quotes hta 1361b.
Doesn't 1361b mean failure to yield?
Is this a fatal error? Or could it be amended at trial. How can I prepare a defence if I don't know if I'm defending the failure to stop or the failure to yield?
After he was providing me with a ticket for failure to obey to the stop sign (I am pretty sure I stopped but less than 3 seconds recommended by my driver ed. instructor), I know everybody say that..as an excuse.
Then he stopped me again to return the documents.
Any advice and feed back would be really appreciated.
Can you get evidence for whether someone had an advanced green at an intersection? My dad was making a right turn on a red (after stopping) into a plaza parking lot. He got hit by someone making a left turn from the opposite lane. The driver told the officer called to the collision that he had an advance green. My dad said he came out of nowhere which makes me…
So i was driving on Eglinton Avenue East near Rosemount Ave.
The school bus was on the the curb on the opposite side of the road while i was travelling on the middle lane of the three-laned Eglinton Avenue East (five lanes apart plus a raised median island seperating the traffic)
I could not see the school bus as my view of the bus was being obstructed by the cars in front of me and on my left hand…
Lots of good information on getting disclosure from the Crown here.
Now, I am just wondering if I will be relying upon evidence of my own at trial... do I have to voluntarily send this material to the Crown in a reasonable time before the trial, or only if they request disclosure from me?
This morning I had an exam for university. I was studying the entire night and i wanted to catch like maybe 1-2 hours of sleep before the exam so i went to sleep. I woke up like 5 hrs after and realize that I was about to miss my exam. I still could have made it so I asked my dad for his car since I was in a huge rush and he gave it to me.
I went on the highway and I was going at 135 km/h but…
the police officer was in in the opesite oncumming lane he was fallowing another car so close that i was not even able to see his cruser till he was buy he said that i was going 111 in a 80 he said he hade me on radar he only asked for me drivers licencs and never asked for my insurence so on the ticket there no insurence dose enyone think i can beat this i wana take it to cort becuse he was…
Hi I have a couple questions so I'll explain my situation and any advice would be appreciated.
Can't remember exact date so lets call it some time in 2008 I got a fine for $5000.00 for driving without in insurance. I never paid the fine and in 2012 I was pulled over and the officer asked to see my license. Although I had it on me I figured it would be under suspension for the unpaid fine from…
Alright, so I did something really stupid the other day, I was driving down a country road and wanted to hit the curves so I passed 3 cars at once, inadvertently making it up to very much past 50 over (80 limit)... Much to my chagrin there was a cop coming in the opposite direction who immediately skidded on the gravel shoulder and who I thought was 100% going to turn around and pull me over,…
Anyone know how backed this courthouse is? I submitted my ticket for trial at the end of August, and still no letter. Im scared it got lost in the mail, can i call the courthouse and find out my courtdate? Or would i have to go in personally?
I recently received a ticket for failure to use low beams - while following - Ticket was issued Sec 168 (
- it was on the 401 and no one was within 500 meters of me, I was warning a oncoming vehicle that there was an officer hiding (which is not illegal or I could not find a law against it) it was a police vehicle travelling at very high rate of speed in the opposite direction with no lights on…
I received a warning letter from MTO for a 2pts ticket.What happened is that the police officer issued a "unsafe left turn" and then changed the ticket to "failed to signal" at the scene, but she submitted both tickets!!! And I !!!ONLY!!! received the latter ticket from her(I requested trial for "failed to signal"). I recently received notice from MTO that I'm convicted for "unsafe left turn".
Hello everyone! I was given a ticket for using a hand-held communication device while driving. It was 3 am, I was at a stop light and the cop saw me with the my phone in my hand. I told him i was just checking the time on it. I received the notes a few weeks ago ill copy them down below. Any help is appreciated although i believe there's no hope for me. The cop recorded me saying what phone i…
I got pulled over about 15 or so days ago the court till this date has not received the summons what is the legal time period that the court has to follow to accept the summons from the office court says its 15 days is the legal timeframe the officer has to serve it on the court
I requested for disclosure of information two months ago.
I received the radar manual after one month, but not others (including maintenance/calibration record of the radar, certificate of police training). On further pursuit, the prosecutor told me that he did not have them and he did not see why I needed these documents. He said he did not know where to get them when I asked.
Last Friday I was pulled over by an OPP motorcycle cop who informed me I was going 134. I was on the SB 404, I did see him parked under a bridge and when I passed him he was not on his bike.
I'm hoping to get some insight for a defense in this case.
I was in lane 1 and I had a car in front of me, and a car behind me, also there was a car speeding down Lane 3 passing everyone and moved quickly into…